Strange...

[Noleader]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/02/06/cartoon.protests/index.html

Anyone else find it interesting that folks would get so worked up over a cartoon... They basicly put everyother religion down (as every religion claims all the others are wrong) but when someone prints something in a newspaper that might not be tasteful they start burning down buildings of said government?

[Bedpost]

It is very strange that when people poke fun at any other religion that nobody seems to really care. The moment someone pokes some fun at Mohammed/muslims... Wham big problem!

Especially when you combine the fact that the muslims in the US still will not denounce what goes on in the middle east that maybe the ones that blow themselves up aren't really that much more extreme then the rest of them.

Now I'm not saying that's the case... but it sure has to make you think about it. Pretty dumb on their part I think

[MickeyFinn]

If I were in charge of the embassy, the instant somebody started throwing things and causing damage I would open fire.

[Bedpost]

You do realize that embassy would be bombed in about 10 seconds if you opened fire on that mob? Probably half the people that were throwing things had bombs strapped to their chests just in case they needed someone to bomb it

[PoxTheSmall]

Come on guys, not all muslims are bad.

[Bedpost]

No not all muslims are... there are a majority that give the few a bad name.

I'm just being an ass here... I don't think all muslims are bad, I just can't believe the way they are reacting to this stupid cartoon. It's certainly not making them look good

[Murrie]

more and more the wonderful peace loving religion of islam makes me think that we would all be much better off just purging 99% of them from the planet.

what a fucking joke of a dirtbag collection of children. Grow the fuck up already.

[PoxTheSmall]

This rioting crap isn't a great way of getting a message accross, but still I understand the feeling behind it. In the Muslim's mind, they are sick of being shat upon by the majority of the Christian world.

There are more muslims than any other religion on the planet. That being said, the range of classes is pretty broad...ranging from king to dictator to the dirt poor.

Muslims honestly feel that the western world wants to slaughter or enslave them. Bosnia's a good example of Murrie getting his wish, I suppose. Muslims all over the world are driven nuts by the UN backing of Israel. This cartoon just kind of adding fuel to the fire. Its viewed as a massively disrespectful portrayal of the primary dude in the muslim belief structure.

[Bedpost]

Yeah but don't most people learn from the time they're about 5 years old the best way to get someone who's bugging them to stop is to ignore them?

If you don't like someone just ignore them, cut relations. There are enough Muslims that they wouldn't need any of the christian world if they didn't want to.

Are you certain about Muslim has more people apart of it then any other. I thought china's main religion (I think it's hinduism) was the highest still? I could be wrong though.

[Allison]

That's what you get with organized religion ... people acting like mindless idiots.

What sort of reaction do you think we'd see if Jesus were depicted in the New York Times having sex with a gay cowboy? I'm sure it wouldn't be violent, but it would be significant, to be sure. The only difference is what constitutes an appropriate response in each of the cultures. In one, you take to the streets and throw things; in the other, you make phone calls and send letters. We're just a little more "civilized" when it comes to our protests ... or soft and lazy. :laugh:

[PoxTheSmall]

China's communist and as a result, atheist. Hinduism is almost only practiced in India.

Muslims HAVE been ignoring the rest of the world. Though, it should be realized that it looks as if the western world's waged war on muslims.

Take into account: http://citycellar.com/BalkanWitness/Sreb2.htm or Palestine and the backing of the UN for the Israelis. There's some MAJOR angst developing there. Also realize how strict the muslim faith is, to begin with...then you have cartoons that are basically making fun of thier primary dude, it just set em off. This crap's been building for a while.

[Murrie]

Muslims honestly feel that the western world wants to slaughter or enslave them. Bosnia's a good example of Murrie getting his wish, I suppose

what muslims grew up and acted like a civilized modern culture in bosnia? Cause thats my wish...

oh yea, no they didnt they tried to kill each other and anyone else that got near them and unfortunately the UN did basically nothing except make the situation worse...

[Bedpost]

You know I thought I had an answer as to what I thought was the problem with westerners vs muslims and I just haven't been able to put on my finger on it. Other then that Muslims think that they should be the richest/most power part of the world, and everyone else should bow to them.

Now I'm not saying that's all muslims but that's just the feeling I get is that they think they are better then everyone else because they have these strict laws for certain things. I just don't really understand how they can still be so far behind many other cultures in alot of things.

Granted the US is far behind in many cultural things as well. IE many of the big cities having horrible crime problems. So I'm not saying US is perfect everyone else sucks. Just more I think it's overall that Muslims have an ego that they feel the need to feed and it's not happening right now is kind of how I take it.

[Post]

"Muslims HAVE been ignoring the rest of the world."

I think that's the key issue. Isolationism. It just stops progression in its tracks, be it in technology, human rights, or whatever. Isolationism was just fine until the end of the 20th century where the world economy starting coming into realization as being one big thing. They're being non-isolated via TV, internet, and everything else, so now they have to come to a compromise between their isolationist ways and being able to exist in the rest of the world.

People don't like to compromise their ways. Hence fundamentalism.

[Aelfwine]

You know I thought I had an answer as to what I thought was the problem with westerners vs muslims and I just haven't been able to put on my finger on it.

Maybe its that westerner's continually try to assert thier influence over the muslim countries to little or no good effect.

Maybe its that westerner's make a small percentage of muslims extremley rich while the rest are left to live very modestly(this is as much their own rulers fault as ours, but it is easy to deflect the blame).

Maybe it is that westerners stick up for, protect, and give military support to their sworn enemy(this goes back to the Bible which says something like the sons of Abraham would always be enemies).

Maybe it is because the modern Muslim world is a western creation(the middle east countries were mostly formed from the remains of the Ottoman Empire with little thought of the ethnic problems this would cause - Africa is another prime example of this brilliant technique /sarcasm off).

Maybe it is because the muslims see their most glorious years as those in which they were in conflict with the western world and want to relive those years(read a article about Iran this weekend that implies this).

In Islam it is a sin to represent God or his reprentative in any way(painting, sculture, etc). That is the main problem here I think. The funny thing about this, is that it is taken directly from the same Ten Commandments that the Jewish and Christians use, except Christians seem to overlook or (mis)interpret this part, as they do with about 1/4 of the commandments.

[Bedpost]

I don't know, I think alot of it has to do with their attitude towards women. The men in those societies still believe that they are far more important and in many cases women are viewed as property still I believe.

I know the example I'm about to give is only 4 people, however, on my flight from cleveland to Vegas a couple weeks ago there were 4 people that I believe were pakistani (not sure though which country they were from) and they were so loud and abnoxious on the plane that it was very disturbing to pretty much everyone there. they were speaking in their language as well so it was even more disturbing to people considering where they were at being on an air plane and being middle eastern. I actually was having thoughts about if these guys started to do something how quickly I would try to react to them.

I think they are so oblivious to how their actions affect others that they just do what they feel is right at the time and worry about the consequences later. The guy who was the loudest of the 4 was the most obnoxious as well. He was constantlly asking the flight attendants for things and had his hands all over them when he was asking. It was like he needed them to know he was in control or something? it was very odd...

it was the only time I've ever been somewhere and I actually went and asked to have someone tell someone to quiet down. I was debating doing it myself but in the confines of an airplane that was the last place I wanted an altercation to start. Not that I ever want that to happen.

Even as it was when they told them they were very upset that someone had asked for them to quiet down.

I know that is an isolated incident and that is not reflective of all people of that area... however, I have seen many times were people from that region have had very little regard for their surroundings.

edit: heh I never really made my point... I think my point is that they view others that treat women as people instead of property as not as good as them. That they should be in control of those situations and that it really bothers them that they aren't.

[Murrie]

hey we are really nice friendly peoples that want to all get along, why are you western dogs attacking us?

[Bedpost]

OMG that guy standing in the front of that picture with that's just looking kinda solem looks exactly like the loudest guy that was on my plane... how strange.

[Murrie]

His sign says "DEATH TO BEDPOST"

[Bedpost]

it did kinda startle me to see him there. I swear he looks just like that guy. I would be really scared if he knew I was Bedpost because I don't think anyone outside of this game, VN, or WoW knows that my name online is Bedpost. I don't even think my wife knows my characters names

[PoxTheSmall]

If its a case of insensitivity, inconsideration and noise levels, I'd wadger that if you'd been sitting next to 2 families of chinese immigrants, that they'd rival the middle easterners, by far. Its just that we're so pumped full of fear about middle easterners that a few loudmouthed jerks on a plane will get you thinking that your life is in danger.

As for the Middle Easterners being letcherous, have you seen the way some northern Italian, Greek or Spanish men behave towards some women? (I saw some, because its definately not an absolute)

[Bedpost]

Yes but everyone knows that italians and Greeks fight with their women. They in no way shape or form treat them like property though. They fight hard and they play hard is everything I've ever heard about Greeks and Italians. Not nearly the same as middle easterners.

I know what you're talking about when it comes to Chinese being loud. however, it's still much different from how these guys were being loud. They almost looked like they were getting upset with each other while they were playing cards and being very loud.

[PoxTheSmall]

what muslims grew up and acted like a civilized modern culture in bosnia? Cause thats my wish...

What people deserve to be purged?

[Bedpost]

I purge myself everyday at about 2 o'clock... is that what you mean by purged?

[Murrie]

What people deserve to be purged?

Is this a trick question or something?
Ill jump, which people deserve a purging Pox?

[Murrie]

Oh shit! now its the hindus!!!


Hindus consider it sacrilegious to eat meat from cows, so when a Danish supermarket ran a sale on beef and veal this weekend, Hindus everywhere reacted with outrage. India recalled its ambassador to Copenhagen, and Danish flags were burned in Calcutta, Bombay, and Delhi. A Hindu mob in Sri Lanka severely beat two employees of a Danish-owned firm, and demonstrators in Nepal chanted: ''War on Denmark! Death to Denmark!"In many places, shops selling Dansk china or Lego toys were attacked by rioters, and two Danish embassies were firebombed. At least five people are believed dead, hundreds wounded.

[Allison]

What's considered "normal" behavior can vary greatly from culture to culture. In some cultures, it's perfectly normal to do things that we might consider rude here, like to speak very loudy or animatedly ... or to stand very close to other people ... or to do your best to cut in line, etc. These behaviors are learned from birth, just as your own are.

Now, I'm not saying that it's okay to be violent or anything like that. But you can't judge the motives of a person's behavior based on your cultural belief system rather than theirs. Most of us would think it's rude or disrespectful to be loud on a plane, but if that's "normal" behavior to them, then their motive isn't to be disrespectful, but just to be themselves.

Like, when Grundy and I were in India, we tried to be respectful by being careful of our male/female interactions. We wouldn't kiss in public or walk down the street holding hands. But, other than that, we pretty much behaved normally. We'd sit next to each other, or he'd hold a door open for me, ... and I'd sit and talk with him and the men ... you know, the usual. But, I'm sure that there were people who thought that we were absolutley terrible... that I was a horrible, arrogant, overbearing wife, or that he was a weak, feminine man. But neither was true. We were just acting in a way that was natural and acceptable in our own culture.

[Allison]

For anyone who took seriously Murrie's post about the rioting Hindus, it didn't happen. :p

[PoxTheSmall]

I know what you're talking about when it comes to Chinese being loud.

I grew up in San Francisco. Its well known here by everyone (including Chinese) that Chinese folks from mainland china are freaking LOUD. Albeit, its not as violently presented as a slavic or middle eastern language might be.

Also, Russian folks sound like they're fighting when having a normal conversation. If you're a Simpsons fan, the episode where they go to NYC and Lisa gets lost in the Russian district, shows a stereotype of what I think you mean.

I'm half Turkish, fyi. Half of my family is muslim, or from a muslim background. My father fights with his wife ALL the time. She fights back...leaves, yad yad yad...its no different in any way, shape or form from the way a marriage would play out here.

The major breakdown that we all have is that there's this broad kind of "they're savages" perception of middle easterners by westerners that kinda needs to change a bit.

[PoxTheSmall]

more and more the wonderful peace loving religion of islam makes me think that we would all be much better off just purging 99% of them from the planet.

what a fucking joke of a dirtbag collection of children. Grow the fuck up already.

Actually, Murrie...you tell me who should be purged. You're the one with an opinion about who deserves it and who doesn't.

[Aelfwine]

Just saw that post. Glad Murrie's not in charge. We'd all be goosestepping.

[Noleader]

Yes but everyone knows that italians and Greeks fight with their women.

How the hell did Italians get sucked into this? We might be loud but we are reasonable damn it! :D

[Noleader]

The major breakdown that we all have is that there's this broad kind of "they're savages" perception of middle easterners by westerners that kinda needs to change a bit.

I disagree. The ones that are making news are savages, but I also know that they do not repersent the whole. Some folks forget that the actions of one (or many) do not repersent the whole.

[Sayj]

I think we should air drop How to Make your own comics kits to them.

[Tammarion]

I remember pointing out the Asian vegan gestapo to Boom :)
(asians use buddist swastikas to designate vegan meals)

[Bedpost]

I guess my biggest thing about this middle eastern stuff is that the muslims that live here in the US still think that the US has been in the wrong for everything we did from the beginning.

Now I'm not talking about the invasion into Iraq, I'm talking about from the day sept 11th happened the muslim community inside the US basically put out a message that we kind of deserved that to happen. They never said that, but the impression that was given off I thought was that they didn't care and just wanted us to stay out of the middle east.

I do not have anything against people of middle eastern decent. I just wish that they would come out and denounce the stuff that's happening there with the suicide bombings. If they are such a peace loving people why wont they at least admit that is wrong on a whole?

[Murrie]

For anyone who took seriously Murrie's post about the rioting Hindus, it didn't happen.
ya, because the Hindu people arnt bloody savages that have no respect for anything or anyone...

Turnabout is fairplay though:

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsarticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyid=2006-02-07T141832Z_01_L07723729_RTRUKOC_0_US-RELIGION-CARTOONS-IRAN-HOLOCAUST.xml&rpc=22
TEHRAN (Reuters) - Iran's best-selling newspaper has launched a competition to find the best cartoon about the Holocaust in retaliation for the publication in many European countries of caricatures of the Prophet Mohammad.

who thinks the jewish people will be rioting and killing tomorrow?

[PoxTheSmall]

Okay, why the muslim folks are angry:

The US backs Israel. We're allies, after all. Well, in the 6 day war, back in the 1960s, basically, the Palestinians were kicked off their land by the Israelis. Now, Bethlehelm and Jaruselem have religious significance in the muslim religion as well as in the Jewish faith and Christianity. I'm not sure what it means, exactly, but it has some type of significance.

So now, there's this small, newly formed country residing in what's classicly been known as a primarily muslim area and the muslims that lived there now live in ghettos in surrounding areas. Occassionally, after a suicide bombing, Israel will launch missle volleys into the ghetto areas. There are no training grounds in the Palestinian settlements...they're just houses. Whenever you hear of Israel lauching a counter offensive, they're basically bombing ghettoes in outlining areas.

So the muslims living here, think that America completely sanctions this type of thing in the middle east. A lot of muslims are angry because they feel that their faith has been demonized by the west, which they really didn't need any help in achieving, a lot of muslims act horribly, as you've stated earlier, bed...and I aggree to a degree.

All I'm saying is that its not as black and white as you might think. Also, I've yet to meet anyone who's muslim who feels that 911 was justified in any way. Not like I hang with with muslim folks, but the guy at my local convenience store or random cab drivers all think it was a tragedy.

[Bedpost]

I'm not talking about the average people. It's just the statements from the muslims that have made it on the news. I don't know if there is a national spokesman for muslims or not here? Not even sure who would technically be the voice of them?

I can totally understand how they are upset by Isreal being there? Why after WWII was that land given to the Jews? I don't understand that at all? If the allies liked the Jews so much why didn't we give them rhode island or something. (that's just an example).

I have nothing against muslims/middle eastern people. Just wish that they had a better way of handling how their image is put out in the media. Maybe what they need is to nominate someone here basically to become a media person for them to help improve their image? I don't know what the answer is but the general impression is not good.

[Murrie]

nothings black and white dude, and there was some serious screwing that went on and continues from both sides, but its high time to grow the hell up and join the civilized 21st century world.

What I see instead of that is a burning desire to returned the 21st century world back to their 5th century stagnation and have no problems murdering and causing whatever mayhem they feel is justified...

[Murrie]

and its not "america" or Isreal" those are just the current outlets of their violence, their 'excuse' to act like they have been wronged enough that they can lash out. They are like children.
If isreal and america completely disapeared I have absolutely no doubt that muslim violence wouldnt stop.

they would act just like they currently do except for the direction of their hatred. And once there were no-non muslims left to hate they would continue the same bullshit against other muslims. (or more likely before) Because they know no better, and have been acting exactly this same way for thousands of years.

[Grundy]

I tried writing out a post a few times but it always came out as a variation of the following:

blah blah sweeping generalizations blah blah hypocrits blah blah all religions are stupid.

[Murrie]

I salute your clarity. Nothing more need be said! Hail Grundy!

[PoxTheSmall]

I totally aggree Grundy.

Now, the thing that has me totally confused is, what exactly is the message that these protesters are trying to bring accross. I don't rightly know that there is one...

As for muslims being war mongers, come on now...no more or less war mongering than Christians or any other demographic religious group. Though, unfortunately, the violence is sanctioned in the koran (sp?) and is interpreted as that by more extreme muslim types. Its not like Christianity doesn't have tons blood on its hands, though.

And lastly, didn't the Iranian president dude say that the holocost never happened? If they start running cartoons of the holocost, wouldn't that kinda betray his whole stance?

[Bedpost]

Yes for some reason several of the middle eastern countries have stated they don't believe the holocaust ever happened. Not sure how they decided to start that crap up?

Grundy is right... pretty much everything I have said have been sweeping generalizations but I have said I don't think it goes towards everyone. Just they aren't coming out and denouncing it though either. Which in some peoples mind that is a way of saying they agree with it

[Murrie]

religion sucks, hail grundy!

[Bedpost]

I would have a hard time agreeing with that Murrie. Religion certainly can be a good thing. Problem is when people take it to far or to much to meaning themselves. All of these people obviously feel that they have directly been insulted some how. Which I just can't understand.

I'm a catholic but even when the priests were molesting children I didn't think it had anything to do with me. It made me not like the church quite as well, and I still haven't gotten over that crap yet. But it still has nothing to do with how I am.

I just don't understand how a cartoon can be taken so offensively. I'd be afraid to write anything if I lived in that area for it might be taken the wrong way.

[PoxTheSmall]

As someone stated earlier, would you be offended if a largely circulated paper/magazine portrayed Jesus as a pedophile as well as being gay? Depending on where this was run, the reactions could be pretty violent...like if that paper hit Ireland or some parts of Europe.

[Bedpost]

I would highly doubt that the reaction would turn into violence. I know I would be disgusted by it, but I would take it that they were either trying to piss someone off. Which if that was the case then getting pissed off is what they wanted. Or they were trying to be funny and it just isn't.

I don't think that even in Ireland that anything close to this would happen if Jesus was depicted that way.

[PoxTheSmall]

I understand now...

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/02/07/iran.cartoon.ap/index.html

They're pissed because they're still running the cartoon in several publications.

As for Christians not having issue...we ARE talking about the same folks who bomb clinics that perform abortions. I'm betting it'd be violent in some areas.

The Prophet Mohammed cartoons were first commissioned and published by a Danish newspaper in September. As Muslim protests mounted, numerous European newspapers have reprinted them in recent days in the name of free expression, provoking wider and angrier protests.

The cartoons touched a raw nerve, partly because most Muslims forbid any illustration of the prophet for fear of idolatry and partly because several drawings portrayed Mohammed as a man of violence. One cartoon depicted the prophet as wearing a turban in the shape of a bomb with a burning fuse.

[Bedpost]

Yes so since they are clearly trying to make a point by saying. We don't care if you're pissed about it we're running it anyway. they start bombing things?

that is a good point about the abortion clinics. however, Abortion is alot different then a comic. I cannot see how anyone can think anything is worthy of blowing something up for. But I can't really compare a comic to what some people think is murder either. I'm sure there would be a protest of some sort. But it wouldn't be anything close to many nations burning embassys. Maybe a couple isolated incidents but nothing close tot his scale

[PoxTheSmall]

I aggree, the violence is stupid on their part, though I can't help but think that the media might be over-exadurating this a tad...I could be wrong.

Okay, I'm pulling this out of my ass, but what if they feel the portrayal of a religious icon in a drawing was on par with what we feel about abortion. After all, a lot of people feel abortion is not necessarily trivial, but a minor thing, whereas others consider it blatant murder and blasphemy, and the line is drawn by faith. Now, if this faith boundary is applied to these muslims who're so pissed off, for some its free speech, for others its insane blasphemy.

[Bedpost]

They are obviously much more fanatical about their religion then i can imagine. So I see what you're saying. However, to be able to get so worked up over text or words or pictures is not something I can fathom.

How can they not consider the possibility that this was created hoping to piss them off?

the violence may be over stated some, but I don't think destroying buildings can really be over stated. If it's burnt the ground that's pretty bad. maybe they were just intending on doing some damage though and the fire started by accident? who knows. It's just not a good situation all around

edit: I don't believe anywhere in the muslim religion does it state, that anyone else who creates things that portrait Mohammed means they should riot. It states they are not supposed to create symbols of mohammed or Allah or another prophet. It does not state anything about someone who is not Muslim doing something with it.

[PoxTheSmall]

I think in a lot of areas it was a peaceful protest but then you get the 1 or 2 assholes and it all goes to hell.

Riots are weird things, if you haven't walked through one, you may never know. I went to a ballroom dancing thing with a girlfriend on New Year's eve, several years ago. We left a little after midnight and upon walking out onto the street, we were over-run by people basically just making a lot of noise. Then all of a sudden, one jerk kicked over a newspaper stand...then another guy picked up a folding street sign thingy and threw it through a store window...then all hell broke loose.

To get out of it was a nightmare, there I was, in a tuxedo with my girlfriend in a formal dress. We had to beg the police line to let us through, since they'd blocked off the streets in both directions.

Anyhow, Riots stink...but it takes just 1 or 2 assholes to start everyone off on some random crap like that. Just because we're on the outside, seeing these idiots riot, it doesn't mean that we don't have the exact same potential.

[Noleader]

As someone stated earlier, would you be offended if a largely circulated paper/magazine portrayed Jesus as a pedophile as well as being gay? Depending on where this was run, the reactions could be pretty violent...like if that paper hit Ireland or some parts of Europe.

My respect for the need of a free press overshadows my dislike that a paper would run that. I would stop reading the paper if it made me that mad, I would not hold the government accountable for a paper they have no control over.

With all freedoms you have some abuses or distasteful activity... The bottom line is the freedom offsets the bad. Thats a thing those people do not know, they never lived in a place where the news papers are not state run. Thats why they assume the government is behind it (and wrongly so)

[PoxTheSmall]

What I'm trying to paint is that we're not so different from them. We have violent riots in America all the time. Hell, we had a peaceful war protest turn violent a few months ago in my city. You might think its different, but what if the same motive that drives us to riot is what drives them to riot as well.

[PoxTheSmall]

Check here: http://vnboards.ign.com/pellinor/b20771/94873630/p1/?21 for the post by lgd3 near the end. I believe he gives a very good run-down on the topic.

[Grundy]

The situation is likely a combination of devout muslims truly being insulted by the cartoon on the basis of 'blasphemy' plus state sponsored politcal-opportunists such as Syria / Iran trying to foment this into something much larger.

There is no also doubt that many ideolgue organizations (even supposedly love-centric religions) will have a wing of extremists that resort to physical action and ironically even to violence. You cannot judge the organization for the actions of a few and you cannot atribute the same label all members, especially when there are over 1.5 billion muslims.

Have you thought about how Christianity, Judiasm and Islam, 3 of the worlds major religions, all claim Jerusalem as their home? This is like less than 1 sq kilometer of space. I find that mind-boggling. What are the odds?

This geographical area has a near monopoly on the licensing of the spriritual moral compass for both east and west, specializing in the branding of monothiesm, the marketing of dogma and iconification of prophets. MS and Nike are mere childs in comparison.

[Aelfwine]

Have you thought about how Christianity, Judiasm and Islam, 3 of the worlds major religions, all claim Jerusalem as their home? This is like less than 1 sq kilometer of space. I find that mind-boggling. What are the odds?


Well, since all three are considered Abrahamic(not sure thats the right word, but its close) religions, share many of the same religious texts, prophets, etc, its not very surprising.

But I do not think that Muslims consider Jerusalem their home. It is just one of many sites in the middle east that they consider holy and do not want ruled by people's of other races\religions. Meca is just as, if not more important then the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem.

[Eiru]

Just for the record, while The People's Republic of China is officially an "athiest political state", the government does allow practice of religion. China's religious population is vast and diverse. The majority of people are Buddhists, but there are also Christians, traditional anamists, shamanistic practice, those who follow Fa Lun Gong (a Sino-Christian hybrid which has been in the news in the past year and a half or so under the "are they being persecuted or not" heading) as well as Muslims. In fact, China has a VERY large population of native Muslims and has it's own problems with them, mostly related to the fact that the ethnic Muslims don't think their part of China should be, well, part of China.

By the way, has anyone here been reviewing the native press in Al Islam to see if anyone is coming out against Muslim violence or intolerance? Or walked into a Muslim "church" (what are they called again?) to listen to what the Imams are actually saying about this subject? Just because we don't see it on CNN doesn't mean it's not happening.

EDIT: For example, I found an article on Al Jazeera's english language website (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/CC93CDFD-FF84-40AB-B6E6-C6D2DF4D3DE8.htm) which paints a much more complex picture of what's happening.

Lebannon has officially appologized to Denmark for the attack on their embassy and the Lebonnese interior minister has tendered his resignation to parliament for not sending in the police to ensure control of the situation. The article also reports that a Catholic priest was shot dead in Turkey. The Turkish government condemed the killing and promised a full investigation into the priest's death.

[Bedpost]

CNN reports all they are an unbiased news source

yeah right

[Eiru]

Interesting. Still cruising through Al Jazeera's website and came across this opinion:

While it is unfortunate that a few people have been upset by the publications of the Prophet, why has it taken so long for any kind of protest to come to light until now? After all, these alledged blasphemous cartoons were first published some months ago.

I think this sort of gets to the point. The cartoons were published months ago, yet outrage is only occurring right now. What Muslim special interest group (We all know about special interest groups, right? Those minorities within a particular group that shout REALLY loud to get their opinion heard even if it's not the opinion shared by the majority of the group? Need some help remembering? Teri Schiavo anyone?) pushed this to the front page?

[Murrie]

Religion certainly can be a good thing.
the single most deadly invention of man is religion. More human suffering has come in the name of one fictional being or another than any other idea or object. Religion in theory can be good, religion in practice has largely not been.

And Pox I have not on iota more regard or respect for a christian terrorist than i do a muslim thug.
Neither has the civility, intelligence and or balls to work through issues in a civilized manner and prefer to use violence where violence is absolutely unnecessary, and both gutter monkeys can rot imho

[Bedpost]

"the single most deadly invention of man is religion. More human suffering has come in the name of one fictional being or another than any other idea or object. Religion in theory can be good, religion in practice has largely not been."

Fictional being huh? I hope you're right for your sake

[Eiru]

Still on Al Jazeera's site. I think Iranian president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, doesn't quite understand (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/FCE073DD-7F1B-4714-95F0-DD1F354F1D9A.htm) either the whole idea of tit-for-tat OR doesn't get the qualitative difference between Western nations denouncing a Holocaust denier and Muslims "protesting" the publication of cartoons that desicrate the founder of their religion.

[Murrie]

Fictional being huh? I hope you're right for your sake
Why?
whats gonna happen if im wrong? Is your god some vengeful unforgiving jerk that would overlook the simple facts that I lead a moral honest and hardworking life that by my account is much more 'good' than many of his 'followers' simply becuase im sceptical? Oh ya, thats right he is....

Id rather not worry about it if thats the case, in fact id rather be driving the bus.

Dont worry about me, I can take care of myself, even if your 'god' doesnt like me...

[Allison]

LInky no-worky, Eiru.

[Bedpost]

Murrie, now why would you come to that conclusion?

the being that i see my god being could not be so irrational that if you never say the words I believe God that makes you a bad person. I don't understand how most religions state that even if you live your life as a good person and are moral that if you don't say I believe in so and so you're out of luck.

that being said. Most people would not say things like this group needs to be purged from the earth. That is where I think you would have a problem with my God. Not that you don't believe in him... if you can make such generalizations that we would be better off if all of a certain group were killed and gone. that's where things would start falling off for me.

[Aelfwine]

I do happen to agree with Murrie, at least in the respects that any god that man worships through organized relgion is fictitious. If there is such a thing as god, then men are incapable of understanding it, and all the bullshit and bickering that goes along with organized religion proves it. What god would want all that dogma associated with it?

It would be better if people who believed in god just understood that it is just the nature of the universe, not some omnipotent father figure who is going to reward some and punish others.

[Eiru]

LInky no-worky, Eiru.

Fixed (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/FCE073DD-7F1B-4714-95F0-DD1F354F1D9A.htm)

[PoxTheSmall]

If your organized religion is a positive aspect in your life, then that's a good thing. Its all this fanatisizm that's associated with ANY religion that gets a little scarey be it these nut cases in the middle east, or our president saying that he talks to god (creepy imho).

Edit: The funniest theonion.com headline of recent memory was "Voice of God Really Cheney on Intercom".

[Bedpost]

Screw all this religion stuff what the heck did Allison do to her icon? that is definitely something that should be kept to a brokeback mountain group or something?

[PoxTheSmall]

I think she's trying to prove a point about the sexy lady avatars.

[Bedpost]

As nice as it is to see the sexy lady avatars. For work wise it would be nicer if they weren't there. However, with the new monitor they are so small i don't think it's really a problem anymore with the way I have my screen formatted now

[Allison]

You don't like my new avatar? I think he's dead seksi. :D

[Allison]

Fixed (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/FCE073DD-7F1B-4714-95F0-DD1F354F1D9A.htm)

Thanks!

[Post]

The worst about about them making the Holocaust cartoons, is that they still won't get it when there isn't Jewish riots from them.

[Eiru]

Here's an article on the whole cartoon issue (http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2006/02/08/denmark/) written by a Dane and focusing on the Danish side of the equation. Granted, the author admits his leftist tendancies, but I don't doubt the truth of what he's reporting about his home country. To read the full article, you have to sit through a quick online commercial. For those that don't want to do that, I'm exerpting some of the more interesting bits. It's a bit of a read. I've bolded what was most interesting to me.

Jyllands-Posten, the Danish paper that originally published the 12 caricatures ... is a conservative paper and it has always minded the religious and political sensitivities of its readership, the Lutheran farmers and the provincial middle class.

...

The Economist called the Danish cartoons a "schoolboy prank." That describes them pretty well, but I like a few of them nonetheless. One is of a benign-looking Prophet, who stands on a cloud turning away a line of suicide bombers with, "Stop, stop, we have run out of virgins." That one elicited a laugh or two in my family. My favorite one, though -- which was aimed at the cartoon publishers, not Islam -- shows Mohammed as a seventh-grader, who has written on the blackboard "Jyllands-Posten's journalists are a bunch of reactionary provocateurs." Two others portray the Prophet much the way Jesus is usually drawn, but darker and with a halo that has turned into horns. The rest are a predictable mix of self-righteous, unfunny commentary and depictions of shady-looking faces with big, bulbous noses and blood-dripping swords. They tab popular prejudices about Muslims as war-mongering and misogynistic blackbeards. They are the pebble that started a tsunami -- but they were never meant to be innocent.

The cartoons started out as a gag, the kind you do when the news is slow. Flemming Rose, the paper's culture editor, decided last summer that he was fed up with what he described as the spreading "self-censorship" on matters related to Islam, so he solicited cartoonists for drawings of "how they saw the Prophet." On Sept. 30, 12 cartoons were published under the headline "Mohammed's Face." Rose cited a statement by a Danish stand-up comedian, who had complained that he was afraid to make fun of Mohammed on TV. A children's book author complained that he could not get anyone to illustrate his book about Mohammed. Another example of Islamic pieties' crushing influence on free speech was that three theaters had put on shows deriding George Bush, but none Osama bin Laden. Cartoons are an important anti-totalitarian expression, Rose wrote, and therefore the paper had asked 40 Danish cartoonists to draw their image of Mohammed. Only 12 responded. Rose implied that some of those who did not respond were infected by self-censorship.

This all would have been very well if the paper had a long tradition of standing up for fearless artistic expression. But it so happens that three years ago, Jyllands-Posten refused to publish cartoons portraying Jesus, on the grounds that they would offend readers. According to a report in the Guardian, which was provided with a letter from the cartoonist, Christoffer Zieler, the editor explained back then, "I don't think Jyllands-Posten's readers will enjoy the drawings. As a matter of fact, I think that they will provoke an outcry. Therefore, I will not use them." When confronted with the old rejection letter, the editor, Jens Kaiser, said, "It is ridiculous to bring this forward now. It has nothing to do with the Mohammed cartoons." But why does it not? Can you offend Muslim readers but not Christian readers? "In the Muhammed drawings case, we asked the illustrators to do it. I did not ask for these cartoons," Kaiser said. "That's the difference."

And therein lies the truth. The paper wanted to instigate trouble, just not the kind of trouble it got. And in this mission it acted in concert with the Danish government. "We have gone to war against the multicultural ideology that says that everything is equally valid," boasted the minister of cultural affairs, Brian Mikkelsen, in a speech at his party's annual meeting the week before Rose's cartoon editorial last fall. Mikkelsen is a 39-year-old political science graduate known for his hankering for the "culture war." He continued, "The Culture War has now been raging for some years. And I think we can conclude that the first round has been won." The next front, he said, is the war against the acceptance of Muslims norms and ways of thought. The Danish cultural heritage is a source of strength in an age of globalization and immigration. Cultural restoration, he argued, is the best antidote.

...

Denmark is no paragon of free speech. Article 140 of the Criminal Code allows for a fine and up to four months of imprisonment for demeaning a "recognized religious community."

...

Back in 1975, Jens Jorgen Thorsen, a multimedia artist belonging to the "situationist school," had a government grant provided to make a film about Jesus taken away. Five thousand young Christians had demonstrated in the street of Copenhagen against Thorsen and his movie and tumultuous scenes broke out. (Coincidentally, a police estimate held that about 5,000 people participated in one of the first demonstrations against the cartoons held in Copenhagen in October 2005.)

...

In the past two years, the Danish People's Party has twice proposed to eliminate the blasphemy paragraph. Two of the party's members, Jesper Langballe and Soren Krarup, both pastors in the Lutheran National Church, have described Muslims as "a cancer on Danish society" in speeches in parliament. They want to be free to say it outside parliament too.

...

But neither Europe's growing domestic problems with religious pluralism nor a Danish newspaper's clumsy provocation of local Muslims explain the unwanted international crisis we are suddenly faced with. Rather, the cartoons apparently provided a grand opportunity to extremists: for radical elements in Islamic countries rife with internal dissent, and for right-wing extremists in Denmark and Europe, to mobilize supporters from the disaffected. Among the victims are the moderate Muslims in Europe and worldwide, who now find themselves increasingly wounded in the crossfire between xenophobes and Islamists.

[Nymf]

@ the comment of china

its about 14 million muslims, witch is not a big % of thier population.
China separate regim and religion, u may have any religion just dont mix the religion with any political goal.
Thats why falun-gog is banned, and if u do an encyclopidia on china it will say that they are all atheist.
then again, if u do the same on sweden it will tell u that 95% is christian but in reality 80% is atheists that are registred as christians when born so the official numbers off any socialist or communist state are pure bull when it come to religion stats.

Biggest ( 100+ millions of each ) religions in china is Taoism, Confucism and Buddism but they have many ( millions ) followers of all know religions.