Robertson suggests God smote Sharon

[Aelfwine]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/01/05/robertson.sharon/index.html

This guy has got to be the biggest POS in this country. It is sad that he has a forum to spout his ignorant beliefs and that their are americans who agree with this garbage.

[Jammer]

I thought God was into parting the Red Sea and stuff for the Israelites. Maybe it's been so long he just got a little confused.

Oh...Robertson = dumbass.

Jammer

[Figtoria]

That guy needs to have his toupee loosened.

[PoxTheSmall]

What kind of a fucking retard says that when the dude's dying in a hospital. That's gotta be the most classless, ignorant thing I've ever read. Robertson needs to be smitten by the FCC.

[Sayj]

Disrespectful. It's interesting just how many people in the public eye are so quick to be disrespectful.

[Noleader]

Disrespectful. It's interesting just how many people in the public eye are so quick to be disrespectful.

Sadly that is what makes news in this nation :(

[Tammarion]

Yawn yawn. Hes got a form for this.

Gawd smote (insert name here) because he is not me. Therefore, giveth me monies so that I might build the Scarlet Monestary.

:D

[Rooster]

lol @ SM reference :)

[mctana]

Whilst fighting religious extremism abroad, we are yet again reminded we have it at home. The difference here, of course, is that it's lampooned and marginalized.

I'm torn. All organized religion needs to be done away with, or made mandatory. Either God doens't exist and we need to evolve beyond it and form a society based on reason.... or he/she does exist and we're doing a shitty job listening to his/her message.

[Rooster]

Called Free-will. He can be an ass if he wants to.. and people are allowed to call him that.

Just like the Iranian PM, and the Palestinians that are rejoicing.. asshats..

[Post]

I think the big issue, though, is that he represents a large sum of people here in the US that vote, and consequently, helps decide our political policies.

Not to mention the irony of the high probability of his constituents act as if they're hardliners against religious extremism.

[Aelfwine]

Not to mention the irony of the high probability of his constituents act as if they're hardliners against religious extremism.

Pat Robertson and his ilk in the Christian Coalition are the very definition of religious extremists. These people are not that far away from Islamic extremists and some of them are already on the same level. If there is evil in the world it is from people like Robertson who act as if they know the will of god.

I would be ashamed of being linked to the same political party as these crazy aholes.

[Post]

"I would be ashamed of being linked to the same political party as these crazy aholes."

I wouldn't be ashamed as much as I would be concerned. There're nuts in every political party; the only ones to care about, though, are the ones that have some pull.

[Figtoria]

I know the will of god.

He wants us all to eat chocolate cake, then go swimming.

[PoxTheSmall]

Pat Robertson and Bin Laden aren't totally dissimilar. The two are religious extremist sect leaders who have a base of followers. Honestly, at what point should people become concerned that Robertson is going to "suggest" that folks be killed and us take it seriously...he's already said that a nation's leader be "taken out", and he's also suggested that because his ID thing got voted out, that something bad happen in the region that deemed ID not curriculum.

At what point did Bin Laden go from that extremist whack-job that nobody really took seriously, to a guy that orchestrates the slaughter of thousands?

[Sayj]

I know the will of god.

He wants us all to eat chocolate cake, then go swimming.

That was his will YESTERDAY. Today, he wants us to play Dark Age of Camelot, then brag about our kills to oblivious co-workers and friends.

[Eiru]

I was going to post this link with a smart remark about how PR was just getting funny. Then I thought what an example of the tollerance Western European societies have developed which would allow such a statement to be made public. If we lived in a more religious culture, Pat's statements would either be taken at face value as the truth or Pat's comments would get him branded as a heretic and he'd be hunted down for them.

"God bless" our secular, civil, tollerant society which allows Pat to have his opinion, share his opinion, and be ridiculed for his opinion all at once!

YAY! :hump:

[Noleader]

I know the will of god.

He wants us all to eat chocolate cake, then go swimming.

You have to wait 30 minutes first!!!

[Sayj]

http://komo4.com/stories/41147.htm

[Post]

What I find really scary about Pastor Pat is not just that he has a pulpit to spout his offensive nonsense from, but that the pulpit is provided by Lord knows how many Christians who send him a gazillion dollars a year to keep him going.

Exactly.

[Aelfwine]

I wouldn't be ashamed as much as I would be concerned. There're nuts in every political party; the only ones to care about, though, are the ones that have some pull.

The problem is that I do not believe that this is a small portion of the Republican party. I do not think they are the majority either, but there are alot of conservatives who subscribe to the same beliefs as Robertson. People I know, some family members believe the ignorant shit that Robertson believes.

Basically these people believe we are living in the end of times. Any day now they think the rapture is coming and they will go away to heaven while us "sinners" are "Left Behind". I think this is a very dangerous line of thinking. It is David Koresh type thinking.

[Eiru]

Basically these people believe we are living in the end of times. Any day now they think the rapture is coming and they will go away to heaven while us "sinners" are "Left Behind".

Welcome to America. Remember who the country was founded by. Millenial thought has been a major strain in the history of American thought. I've always been of the opinion that America's major problem from the beginning was that it was founded by religious puritans and actually populated by "huddled masses yearning to breathe free".

Any Canadian on the board want to speak up about the "crazy American religious types"? I know Airr could go on for a couple days about how there is no real separation of church and state down here. ;)

Pat reminds me of something I heard Bruce Cockburn say once in a concert of his I was listening to. Bruce is a Christian and he was dedicating his next song (about religious extremism): "Folks like me are really tired of saying 'Yes, I'm a Christian, but I'm not one of those.'"

[Aelfwine]

Welcome to America. Remember who the country was founded by. Millenial thought has been a major strain in the history of American thought. I've always been of the opinion that America's major problem from the beginning was that it was founded by religious puritans and actually populated by "huddled masses yearning to breathe free".

Too bad some of the founding fathers were considered Diests, including Jefferson and Franklin, at times during their lives. There is no doubt that christian philosophy plays into the forming of America, but it in no way was the only thing. While the NE of the US was originally colonised by puritans who were seaking religious freedom, by the time of the founding of the USA the Age of Reason was in full bloom in Europe and was very influential on the founding fathers.

[Rooster]

I think the big issue, though, is that he represents a large sum of people here in the US that vote, and consequently, helps decide our political policies.I beg to differ. I'm in the bible belt... and NO he does not represent nearly the portion of population you think he does.

[Rooster]

The problem is that I do not believe that this is a small portion of the Republican party. I do not think they are the majority either, but there are alot of conservatives who subscribe to the same beliefs as Robertson. People I know, some family members believe the ignorant shit that Robertson believes.

Basically these people believe we are living in the end of times. Any day now they think the rapture is coming and they will go away to heaven while us "sinners" are "Left Behind". I think this is a very dangerous line of thinking. It is David Koresh type thinking.That would be like me thinking that all democrats are socialist bastards that want us to live in huts. You're definitely giving too much sway to this type of talk.... and dismissing the legitamacy of the bulk of conservative thinking people.

[Aelfwine]

That would be like me thinking that all democrats are socialist bastards that want us to live in huts.

You mean you don't? :cheese:

[Aelfwine]

And Roo, just to show the other side of the coin, I also believe that liberals who support all the crazy shit the ACLU supports hurt their own cause. Mostly the anti-christian stuff and the Nambla ignorance. I do not believe they are as dangerous as christian fundamentalists though. I am not anti-christian, I am anti fundamentalism, whether it be Islamic or christian. If you do not believe there is something to be worried about from these people, I think its just because you choose not too.

[siledre]

well if this case in italy proves Jesus doesn't exist

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060105/od_uk_nm/oukoe_uk_religion_court;_ylt=AvWku85knKfCcxLeynDPm tWs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3ODdxdHBhBHNlYwM5NjQ-

Pat will be out of a job.

[Eiru]

Yeah, let me appologize, Aelf. I didn't mean to insinuate that Fundamentalist Protestant Christian Thought was the defining characteristic of Americas intellectual, political, or legal history. All I meant to say was that a certain type of Christianity has been part and parcel of popular American cultural history for the entire existence of the country.

The place was first settled by puritans. Oodles of 19th century millenial cults sprung up in America. America has its own home-grown sect of Christianity: Mormonism. There's a strong tradition of tent revivals throughout American history and geography. America has a history of snake-handlers, spiritualists, prophets, and preachers. I don't pass judgement on this and I don't think anyone else on this board does (although I have a feeling the Canadians are thinking "Snake-hanlders? WFT??"). All I'm saying is that there is a deep-seated cultural context in the general American psyche for Pat Robertson and David Koresh that really doesn't exist in Canada, say.

The crack about purtians vs. everyone else was my attempt to point out the fundamental tension in American culture. It may be dated, but the phrase "Banned in Boston" was still known to me in my youth and I'm not all that old by some people's reconning.

[Post]

"I beg to differ. I'm in the bible belt... and NO he does not represent nearly the portion of population you think he does."

He represents enough to keep him rich and his ministry going strong. Ok, out of the people that are that far off of the rest of the party on the dangerous side, who is the next closest when it comes to influence over people? I can't think of anyone anywhere near him. They're either nowhere near him in terms of dangerously far off of the rest of the party (someone like Al Franken or Rush Limbagh), or nowhere near the influence (people like cult leaders).

I realize that by no means he represents a majority, but he definitely represents enough to make the difference in the last two Presidential elections, several times over, even.

Edit: heck, I know a lot can change over 20 years, but this guy made a good run in trying to win the Republican candidacy in the 80's. That's pretty influential.

[Figtoria]

All I'm saying is that there is a de
ep-seated cultural context in the general American psyche for Pat Robertson and David Koresh that really doesn't exist in Canada, say.

You are absolutely correct.

Certainly there are deeply religious people here, but religion is a very private, personal thing.

You don't ever see public displays of prayer, for example. The whole clutching each other, crying and praying to the lord thing that you see during tragedies in the US South are completely foreign to us. It just doesn't happen. I have never seen in person, nor reported in the newspaper that kind of religious fervour.

It would be considered to be very bad taste to put ones spirituality on such a public display.

[Rooster]

So one's religious beliefs are supposed to be kept private, but sex isn't?

Hrm.

There are tribes (SE Asia/Indonesia)where it's VERY private to EAT.. but not to piss/poop (where they do in public). Does that make it right for you or me?

Canada sounds too much like France (regarding religion) to me. Boy, there's a good model to work from!

[WAnk]

just curious, but how does france regard religion?

[Post]

"Canada sounds too much like France (regarding religion) to me. Boy, there's a good model to work from!"

Two wrongs do not make a right. IMO, while you should be able to do just about anything that doesn't directly affect me, the tasteful thing to do is to be respectful and, if it's not too difficult for you, to avoid offending anyone, be it with religion, sex, or whatever.

And to be fair (and in general), public displays of sex in society is an unfortunate effect that goes hand in hand to how that society sees their political views - more personal freedom. Public displays of religion in society is an unfortunate effect that goes hand in hand to how that society sees their political views - less personal freedom.

[Figtoria]

Depends on whether you mean French Canada or English Canada. French Canadians (in general) tend to be more demonstrative in their religious emotion, more like the US South.

[Tammarion]

Being non-offensive is all fine and dandy, but I do think that some people should get a little more thick-skinned.

And roo, where did public displays of sex come in? Last time I checked, public lewd behavior was still a crime. If someone started the First Church of Roman Orgies, I'm pretty sure they'd get shut down without a peep from the ACLU.

[PoxTheSmall]

I'm pretty sure they'd get shut down without a peep from the ACLU

Hehehe

[Aelfwine]

So one's religious beliefs are supposed to be kept private, but sex isn't?


I don't care if people specify their religious belief in public, say by wearing a cross or a beanie(sp?), but I do expect religous people to have common sense. What Robertson said, about someone he calls a friend, is fucking disrespectful and in the end, it hurts the perception of america in the world. I know this is not something that you probably care about, but some of us do. The face of christianity in America is alittle much. It should not define us.

And lets face it, there are plenty of christians who would prefer that all religious belief besides their own be kept private. There is no doubt that muslims knealing down and praying would make alot of christians(and others) run for the authorities. What about Rastafarians? Shouldn't they be allowed to demonsrate their religion in public without the threat of jail?

[Rooster]

Aelf, what country you living in?

It's Christianity that is under attack - in schools, in public, etc... Every Christian I know is fine with other religions, including Muslims. Live & let live.. but that's not the motto of everyone else it appears (meaning agnostic, atheist, etc...) - they will teach Islam, Buddhism, etc, in school, but refuse to teach anything about Christianity... and then there's the attack on Christmas - making it a Holiday tree, and After-holidays sales.. it's Christmas people.

I guess when you're on the other side, attacking Christians all the time, it seems like a juggernaut that won't stop .. but when you're one, it just seems like you're a big calm hippo in a pond of pirranahs.

[Aelfwine]

I do not support any of the attacks on Christmas or Christianity, but then I also believe it was blown way out of proportion by people like Bill OReilly. We live in a country that is 80% Christian. Any attacks on christianity by the ACLU or some ignorant athiests with nothing better to do should be easily defeated.

Either way, I believe all the Xmas stuff, any attempts to ban people from wearing crosses, any attempts to change flags or town names with references to christianity, are about as fucking dumb as Pat Robertsons statements and beliefs. Its a waste of time.

I also believe that there would not be a "attack" on Christianity in this country if not for the fact that christians in the US seem to think it is there god given right to force their moral values on people who do not share their beliefs, ie the War on Drugs, prostitution laws, stem cell research, assisted suicide, the list goes on and on. If christians find this stuff imoral it is very easy to not have anything to do with it and to pass their values on to their children. And I would gladly support there decision. But when they want to take things out of the personal decision arena and make it a law enforcment issue, I have a huge problem with that.

And please, show me a public school in this country that is teaching Islam.

[PoxTheSmall]

The bottom line is that Pat Robertson doesn't just make Americans look bad, he REALLY makes Christianity look bad from an outsider's perspective. I mean, the worst representative that you could possibly ever have is a nutcase, and he has a large fan base and national show...

[WAnk]

Aelf, what country you living in?

It's Christianity that is under attack - in schools, in public, etc... Every Christian I know is fine with other religions, including Muslims. Live & let live.. but that's not the motto of everyone else it appears (meaning agnostic, atheist, etc...) - they will teach Islam, Buddhism, etc, in school, but refuse to teach anything about Christianity... and then there's the attack on Christmas - making it a Holiday tree, and After-holidays sales.. it's Christmas people.

I guess when you're on the other side, attacking Christians all the time, it seems like a juggernaut that won't stop .. but when you're one, it just seems like you're a big calm hippo in a pond of pirranahs.


seriously, what is up with the christian martyr syndrome we are seeing lately? that bullshit about christianity not being taught in schools is just that, pure bullshit. we had a week devoted to religion in one of my social studies classes in high school. we spent four days on christianity and one day on everything else. i wasn't complaining, since in our country christianity is much more relevant. that day of the 'other religions' was crazy to me, because i had never had any exposure to them before them. this is not to mention how much you are taught about christianity when studying history, especially the dark-ages and the renaissance. hell pretty much all of early american history is intertwined with religion (read christianity)... to say the school system teaches all about other religions and nothing about christianity is just so unbelievably false, that your eyes are spewing geysers of shit, rooster.

why do you feel like people are attacking you personally when people call an asshat christian an asshat?

[Post]

"It's Christianity that is under attack - in schools, in public, etc... Every Christian I know is fine with other religions, including Muslims. Live & let live.. but that's not the motto of everyone else it appears (meaning agnostic, atheist, etc...) - they will teach Islam, Buddhism, etc, in school, but refuse to teach anything about Christianity... and then there's the attack on Christmas - making it a Holiday tree, and After-holidays sales.. it's Christmas people."

IMO, it's a vocal and influential minority speaking for each respective sides. I mean, I'm agnostic, my family's agnostic, and a lot of my friends are either atheist or agnostic, and I can't think of one of them that doesn't celebrate Christmas, and still says "Merry Christmas", etc. As a matter of fact, the only person I can think of that I know, that doesn't celebrate Christmas, is a Christian (a Jehovah's witness).

So you know how you feel that there's this "Christianity is under attack" issues coming from non-Christians? That's the power of the minority of "my" side, and is exactly the reason why people like Pat Robertson are scary - even though they do not represent a majority of their side by any means (like non-Christians attacking Christmas), they still have a huge influence over our everyday life.

[Rooster]

See, I think yall still attribute WAYY too much influence to Robertson - he's a whacko.

And Wank... the Charlotte Meck School system (& Twin Cities school system) taught a few days about different religious, but Christianity wasn't one of them... but Fort Mill SC (where we live now) did do a balanced review - and wasn't afraid to make a Christmas show, actually a Christmas show... but they did include Judaism and how Christmas was celebrated back in Old Europe.

I have kids in school (3 different grade levels) .. and I attended school.. and my wife attended school, and we've moved 3 times with kids in school, so I'm pretty sure I have more experience with various school systems than you do.

[WAnk]

well, i am sorry that my personal experience runs counter to your rhetorical absolutes. you said schools don't teach christianity and are attacking christmas. what you should have said that they were doing so in your old school system, but aren't in your new school system. and they also aren't in my school system. so far we have 2 specific instances that go against your point between us. you shouldn't have said "they will teach Islam, Buddhism, etc, in school, but refuse to teach anything about Christianity... and then there's the attack on Christmas". if we were talking about your experiences in minnesota, it wouldn't have mattered, but you were using that comment as a broader trend, which it isn't. i don't care about pat robertson. i do care that you are sitting here trying to make shit up and force it past us as support for your argument. so knock it off. it is disrespectful to all of us, and it really pisses me off when you do it.

and why did you attack my school experience, when some of your experiences mirror it? even if you do have more experience, are you trying to make the point that i didn't learn about christianity in high school, because your schools in minnesota didn't teach about it? if that was your point, why did you share about your balanced and fair experiences in south carolina? it just shows that you were lying in the first place, and you were just attacking me out of habit

[Gwylenna]

Christians may indeed feel under attack; however is that because they are now being "unreasonably" curtailed, or is that that those who do not believe are finally saying enough to having Christianity shoved in their faces every day.

I do not see the agnostics and atheists, Islamics or Jews, shoving religion into the faces of others in the same way Christians do at all; it seems to always be the other way around.

I also do not see Christianity leaving the schools like so many do, let me give some examples.

In most music programs, in publicly funded high schools and colleges you will find numerous examples of religious music being practiced, studied and used. Especially when dealing with the classics. Take any music history course and you will spend weeks looking at the influence of "The Christian (Catholic) Church" on music, though you will perhaps get only an honorable mention on how non-western music figures in the mix, though most religions, including non-Christian, use music in many ways.

If you sing classical music you will find that most of it is religious in nature.

Study architecture and Catholic Church design and architecture figure heavily into the picture; though architecture in countries that practice other religions and the architecture of other religious buildings are largely ignored.

Crack open a history book on European History and there it is all over the place.

Interesting how we spend so much time studying European and American (USean to be honest since we only gloss over Canadian, Central American and South American) History which is rich in Christian reference and history and so little looking at African, Arab or Asian history and the religions that have influenced them.

Take an art history class and again you will spend time studying art commission by a Christian Religion or depicting a Religious subject. Again art from non-western countries and non-Christian influence are for the most part ignored.

If you look at most high school and college required courses you will find many Christian references, however if you want to study something that references other cultures and therefore mention the religious influences of those culture, you will have to take an elective course that for most of the common degrees will not even really count towards the course requirements of that degree.

To make this a little more personal, I have practiced music most of my life, in high school and college when my religious beliefs leaned more and more agnostic, I could have made a stink over the many songs I was asked to perform that were religious or mentioned God or Jesus.

Instead I decided that I was a performer and it was my job to sing the music as the artist intended, because it was there message and art I was conveying, not my own. So I sang all of it, without making a big deal. Then when we sang a Jazz standard called Ray's Rock House the lines "the devil is in control here” and “Are all in t’sin in here” had to be modified so that the Christians in our class would not be offended. This is after singing things like the “Gloria” Cantata, a decidedly religious work, “Great Day” a religious spiritual, “The Virgin Mary had a Baby Boy” as well as many other religiously flavored songs.

[Post]

"See, I think yall still attribute WAYY too much influence to Robertson - he's a whacko."

So are the people who get offended by saying "Merry Christmas". And yet, here we are - with all sorts of stores no longer stating it, and Christmas "being under attack."

[PoxTheSmall]

I'm not 100% sure about scholiastics here, but aren't private Catholic or otherwise religion based schools capable of teaching the type of course outline that you're looking for, Roo? There are more Christian based private schools than any other type of private K-12 school around.

[Rooster]

I'm not looking for any class outline - just balance. I'm not talking about catachism or anything like that - just general info about the history of the religion and it's place in today's society.

[Post]

Have you ever been in a religious history class? Granted, it was a few years ago when I was in an anti-religion phase, but they taught Christianity as if it was fact and the rest were made-up stories.

[PoxTheSmall]

Well they don't offer religious history in public schools, but they do offer some of those courses in private schools. To have them include anything like that in public schools would be a major stretch and I could see a school district being sued for offering that kinda course.

Now understand, the fact that someone would be offended is because there are so many different religions in this country that to include one is to exclude others in the public arena. Private schools can deviate from that type of boundary, though.

[Aelfwine]

Basically these people believe we are living in the end of times. Any day now they think the rapture is coming and they will go away to heaven while us "sinners" are "Left Behind". I think this is a very dangerous line of thinking. It is David Koresh type thinking.

That would be like me thinking that all democrats are socialist bastards that want us to live in huts. You're definitely giving too much sway to this type of talk.... and dismissing the legitamacy of the bulk of conservative thinking people.

So, I had a appointment with DTV today. The installer comes, and he seems like a nice guy, and starts doing his thing. We are talking and he tells me something like "Do not trust DTV, they do not love you. The only person who loves you is Jesus. He is coming soon you know?"

Just a random encounter and I hear from a stranger talk of the rapture and the end of times.

Yea, I give too much sway to this kind of talk.../rolls eyes

[Figtoria]

I'd be on the phone complaining to the management of that company so fast, it would make your head spin.

I'm not paying to listen to offensive freaky god talk.

[Aelfwine]

Jesus loves you Fig :cheese:

[Allison]

And, Happy Holidays! :D

[Noleader]

Why do people feel that their religon should get more face time then others? Does it really matter if the cashier says Happy Holidays or Merry Christmas... Does it make you less of a christain in some way to not have prayer in public schools or religious items in our government buildings?

Does it attack your faith because we outlawed ID form schools? Does it make you less christian because we try to keep government and religion apart?

The answer to all those is NO. Just because the rest of the US does not want to be christian does not make you less of one.

[PoxTheSmall]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americas/01/11/colombia.condoms.reut/index.html

I find it funny how condoms can help to save people's lives, whereas the church straight says that abstainence is the only acceptible form. What I find ironic is that Chatholic school girls have always been renouned for being easy (and getting knocked up), at least when I was in high school...