Who was right? Swifty vs. Bush

[Noleader]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/13/katrina.impact/index.html

hmm...

[Boom]

Just because Swifty says the Feds did nothing wrong and bear no blame, and Bush says there were serious problems and the federal gov "didn't fully do its job right" doesn't mean there is any conflict. They are both right. I am sure it will be explained to us.

It may seem confusing. Bush is saying he takes responsibility for the Fed failures and Swifty has been saying there were no Fed failures. I am sure if we took off our liberal blinders it would make perfect sense.

[]LoL[Harm]

I'm still trying to break through to Swifty, but he's saying that GWB is just baby'ing the masses.

[Swifty_Johnson]

He is. This has become a political storm that needs to be removed so the relief effort can go unhindered. What would you want him to do? Keep fighting so the finger-pointing causes even more problems? That's what a liberal would do. He's seen the quickest way to remove the issue and he's taking it.

Also, what he sees as a problem, I do not. The biggest "failure" was the inability of the Federal Government to wrest control of the situation in N.O. from the state. That's a failure of the State, not the Federal government. To me, the system works, the people of LA got the government they elected, if they don't like it, they can vote them out.

This is the same FEMA that responded to every hurricane for the last two years. There wasn't any troubles in any state but LA, what does that tell you? Oh right, the system is horribly broke.

Swifty

[Figtoria]

He's just saying what a truly >responsible< leader would have said two weeks ago, when it first became apparent that things were cocked up.

I'm far from having more respect for him after this; he's just trying to appease people now (maybe his press people are finally watching TV) - but it's too little, too late for way too many dead people.

[]LoL[Harm]

The biggest "failure" was the inability of the Federal Government to wrest control of the situation in N.O. from the state. That's a failure of the State, not the Federal government.

There you are wrong, control can be wrested (not fully) but in greater strides by DHS, which they failed to do in a timely fashion. It took them until late Tuesday to declare the disaster a "incident of national significance". Which as far as I can find allows them greater control over all resources on hand, and allows them to deploy the military. In fact, the DHS can deploy Federal First Responders even before the disaster hits. Another failure of the DHS and FEMA: Some Federal agencies have statutory authority and responsibility to deploy directly as first responders upon notification of an incident or potential incident (e.g., OSCs responding to oil or hazardous materials incidents). These responders may arrive on-scene before there is a determination as to whether the incident is an Incident of National Significance, but once declared, would operate under the protocols established in the NRP.

His is the NRP: http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/dhs/nrp.pdf

http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/display?content=4270

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/03/AR2005090301653.html

[Post]

"He's just saying what a truly >responsible< leader would have said two weeks ago, when it first became apparent that things were cocked up."

Damn straight. You know who gets blamed when I don't get some analysis done for my bosses because one of the people I manage don't get me the data I need to do my analysis? Me. You know who should be blamed? ME.

When I'm responsible for resources (people in this case), then I'm the one held accountable. Regardless if it's because I didn't tell my resources the right thing to do, or because my recources didn't do what I told them.

Let's just say that all of the fuckups in the Bush administration are all because of lousy timing (since bipartisanship is something every President has had to deal with for quite a while now). Bush should just take the hint God is giving him and quit. I want a President that has been dealt a better hand of cards, so our country's luck doesn't haven't to coincide with Bush's absolutely shitty luck.

[Swifty_Johnson]

In fact, the DHS can deploy Federal First Responders even before the disaster hits. Another failure of the DHS and FEMA:

Umm, what do you think the Coast Guard did? Federal first responders and they were ready before the hurricane stuck. Care to admit you are wrong on this point? Plus the military also prestaged stuff before the strike.

Also, the Red Cross and Salvation army were both posed to enter NO but were denied by LA state officials. Both work with FEMA.

Swifty

[Boom]

Wow, so Swifty really is saying that Bush is wrong!

[Swifty_Johnson]

Yup Boom, Bush is wrong. See, I can criticize Bush.

I'm betting he is feeling guilt for not calling N.O. to be in "insurrection" and taking over and sending in Federal troops. If he did I would feel he was abusing his power. The call was Blanco's to make, she dropped the ball and the Feds were stuck with playing within the rules. Now it's up to the people of LA to replace her.

Jason van Steenwyk is a Florida Army National Guardsman who has been mobilized six times for hurricane relief. He notes that:

"The federal government pretty much met its standard time lines, but the volume of support provided during the 72-96 hour was unprecedented. The federal response here was faster than Hugo, faster than Andrew, faster than Iniki, faster than Francine and Jeanne."

This is from someone who has seen it first hand. I'm guessing he will be ignored though.

Swifty

[Popo]

imo you should pick up a copy of this week's TIME. It has a good break down of the debacle.

[Boom]

I'm wondering. You say Bush didn't send in the National Guard because it would be an insult to the governors, who are supposed to be in charge of the NG. So was it Gov Blanco who sent those thousands of Louisiana NG troops to Iraq? Or is GWB only concerned with insulting governors when American lives are at stake?

Also, how the hell is Blanco supposed to get the NG from other states to come help? She can't do that, GWB can. The Louisiana NG did not have the resources to deal with this NATIONAL disaster. Expecially since thousands of them are in Iraq.

I have no problem acknowledging the massive (yes massive) local failure in New Orleans. But there were failures at the Fed level too. This was a National disaster, not a local one. I spent over a day watching people dying at the convention center on TV (on every network but Fox, which I watched for hours and hours), I was screaming at the TV, "OMG, why can't we airdrop some troops and water there! People are dying!!!" and then heard Brownie say that FEMA wasn't aware of the convention center horror. That's a failure at the Federal level. At that point Louisiana was decimated and did not have the ability to save those people. We didn't have the manpower or the equipment. Only the Feds had that abiliity. I believe our military can do anything. We were driving around in Bagdad, the most heavily defended city in history, how many hours after we attacked? If our boys could get into Bagdad that fast, they could get to the convention center way way way sooner than they did.

Locals bear most of the burden for the fact that people were in the convention center, instead of being properly evacuated, but the feds bear most of the burden for failing to get in there with some freakin bottled water. At that point, it was a National disaster and Federal responsibilities had been triggered and they failed to meet those responsibilities.

We have been told for the last 4 years that the Feds were spending billions to prepare us for terrorist attack (both preventative measures and remedial measures). If the terrorists had blown up the levees, and it took the Feds this long to respond, would you still say there were no failures at the Fed level? Does the fact that it was a hurricane and not terrorists make a difference?

[Riddick]

Locals bear most of the burden for the fact that people were in the convention center, instead of being properly evacuated, but the feds bear most of the burden for failing to get in there with some freakin bottled water.

I'm just hoping all that isn't forgotten when the hundreds of committees are formed to review all of this. Hopefully the blame will all not be put on the Federal level and will instead be reviewed at all levels before and after the hurricane struck. It was a f*ckup everywhere.

And this racism BS isn't helping the situation either.

[Swifty_Johnson]

You say Bush didn't send in the National Guard because it would be an insult to the governors, who are supposed to be in charge of the NG. So was it Gov Blanco who sent those thousands of Louisiana NG troops to Iraq?

Bush cannot command the NG until they are federalized. They were federalized and sent overseas, that is something Bush can do. Unless he declares an insurrection in LA, he cannot send Federal troops into the area. There are laws preventing Federal troops being used on U.S. citizens. Only a state controlled NG can easily be used and deployed inside the U.S. and that is Blanco's job.

I spent over a day watching people dying at the convention center on TV (on every network but Fox, which I watched for hours and hours)

Really? One morning Shepard Smith did a report with a dead body laying behind him, and I watched FOX when I got home from work and I saw the woman in a wheel chair and a blanket draped over her.

I was screaming at the TV, "OMG, why can't we airdrop some troops and water there! People are dying!!!" and then heard Brownie say that FEMA wasn't aware of the convention center horror. That's a failure at the Federal level.

How many people were there? Several thousand? What would have happened if they dropped food for a few hundred? Imagine the chaos as people fight for it. Also, how do you supply the troops that were dropped there? What helicopters do you take from S&R duty to do that? How many will die because you take the helicopters from S&R.
It remains to be seen where that failure happened. If the state and local officials informed FEMA about the situation, then yes it was a Federal failure, but if the local officials never told FEMA, that is a local failure.

Only the Feds had that ability.

To bad Blanc refused to turn the effort over to Federal control.

I believe our military can do anything. We were driving around in Bagdad, the most heavily defended city in history, how many hours after we attacked? If our boys could get into Bagdad that fast, they could get to the convention center way way way sooner than they did.

Then can do anything, with the proper planning. Do you realize how long those maneuvers were planned before they were even executed?

but the feds bear most of the burden for failing to get in there with some freakin bottled water.

There was a helicopter drop of supplies at the convention center on Thursday and a federal relief convoy got there on Friday. So how can the Feds be charged with failing?
Also the Red Cross and Salvation Army tried to enter N.O. on Tuesday with food, water and sanitation facilities but were turned back by state officials. How can the Feds be blamed?

The Feds have NEVER claimed to be able to deliver food and water in 24 hours.

If the terrorists had blown up the levees, and it took the Feds this long to respond, would you still say there were no failures at the Fed level?

Nope, the Coast Guard was there quickly rescuing people, the Army and Air reserve helicopters were there right after them. How can you expect them to respond even faster?

Swifty