Rumsfeld: taking one for the team

[Allison]

Kudos to him. This is the kind of straight-talking responsibility we need to see more of in our political leaders, if you ask me. No double-speak. No excuses. Just, "The buck stops here."
These events occurred on my watch as secretary of defence. I am accountable for them. I take full responsibility.
http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=506814&section=news

[]LoL[Harm]

Yes, taking responsibility for mistakes is a required trait for a leader, even if your subordinates were the ones at fault, you being the leader are still responsible.

[Noleader]

Kudos to him. This is the kind of straight-talking responsibility we need to see more of in our political leaders, if you ask me. No double-speak. No excuses. Just, "The buck stops here."

http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=506814&section=news
He is the only one I like in the Bush team... Everyone always joked about him taking his time to answer questions, but I always thought atleast I knew he was not just readnig from a script.

[Hammer]

I disagree. There was nothing to be held responsible for. Did he institute the policies that lead to this. Did he try to cover it up? Did those under his command try to cover it up?
No. These abuses were reported by other soldiers. It was reported publicly and an investigation was launched. Those responsible are being handled by the military justice system.

I like Rummy but this is pandering to the BS media coverage of this event, and nothing more. While he's at it he should take responsibility for the sun setting. He has almost the same amount of responsiblity for that event as well.

[]LoL[Harm]

I view it in a little different light. I don't think the apology is for any "screw" up that might have happened due to any policy or non-existent cover-up. The apology is just that this kind of thing happened. Say your running a project and one of your project members screws something up and another project member reports it to you. Everyone in the chain of command say's he's sorry to the people he is held accountable for, even though it was a fuck up by someone way down low on the food chain.

Being the Secretary of Defense means he's responsible for this kind of thing, he didn't write the policy that allowed it and he didn't do anything wrong. But people under him did fuck up somewhere down the line. I mean if the President finds out about this from viewing it in the Media even though the knowledge was already known within the government prior to the Media's release, then there was an information gap that needed to be filled.

[Allison]

I agree with you, to a point, Hammer. I haven't seen anything that leads me to believe that Rummy was personally responsible for any of it, and I don't think anyone believes he is.

But ... and I think this is where a lot of us here disagree ... I think it shows a lot of character to stand up and take responsibility for what happens in your department, even if it's not your fault. It generates a ton of good will and respect toward that person. I mean, after all, if you're going to take credit when things go well, it looks kind of wienie-ish to throw your hands up and say, "It wasn't me," when things go wrong.

But, like I said, I think this is a fundamental difference in how people view apologies. I was rather surprised to see that some people think that an apology is an admission of guilt. I've never seen it that way. Well, they can be, of course. But in situations like this, it's a matter of making peace, not accepting blame.

I'll also disagree with you that Rummy is pandering to the media. It has never been this administration's policy to do that sort of thing. They've always protected their own, and been very private about what goes on behind closed doors. But this time is different. Not only did President Bush authorize the leak that he personally rebuked Rummy (a first), but almost all of the senior administration officials have issued public apologies for this mess. What's different in this case isn't the media. It's that the entire Arab world is pissed at us, including our allies. World leaders are expecting and need to hear apologies. And, Congress is none too happy that they were blindsided, either. This is a P.R. disaster; the administration knows it; And they're responding to it quickly, and with as much humility as possible.

[Allison]

Oooh.. good business example Harm.

Hammer, let's say you contracted to do some work for a company, and something goes horribly wrong. When you go in to the meeting to explain what happened, do you start with, "First of all, this wasn't my fault. It was this guy who works for me." Or, do you begin with, "First of all, let me apologize. This should have never happened."

[spyder913]

I saw an interesting show on this last night.. on one of the newsy political channels. the guy was basically saying:

Why do we hold CEOs and CFOs of corporations responsible for their entire company - like at Enron - no matter if it is their fault or not, but not political figures?

It was an interesting debate, and the conclusion they seemed to come to is that a huge organization like the military has a bigger separation from the top brass and the people doing the wrong who might even be a subcontractor. On the other hand even large corporations tend to have less separation, especially when it comes to the books, even if they are contracting out their accounting.

[]LoL[Harm]

Why do we hold CEOs and CFOs of corporations responsible for their entire company - like at Enron - no matter if it is their fault or not, but not political figures?
Because the worker who did fuckup is living off of $25,000 a year and the CEO is living off of $850,000 plus options. He's getting paid for that stuff, the guy who screwed up isn't. ;)

In Enron's case the CEO was probably pulling in more like $25 million a year. But thats just a low-rough estimate.

[spyder913]

good arguement. That's not one they brought up...

[Rooster]

Their wage/salary has nothing to do with it directly.

Compensation should be equal to responsibility/value to the company. That only supports their findings in Businesses.

[]LoL[Harm]

Compensation should be equal to responsibility
Precisely the point.

/em nods

[Rooster]

Which is one reason I think the President should be paid more. The man (or woman, whatever -- but no sense being PC about it until it happens) is quite possibly the most powerful man in the world.

[]LoL[Harm]

Yeah his pay may be low but just look at all the benefits, you get a house, a jet, a helicopter, your own military escort in the skies, secret service, free food, free utilities, free clothes free everything. I think the benefits add up to alot. Overall though the salary could be increased, but I don't know that it should be a huge bump up.

[Hammer]

Alli, I would have to say that depends. If the goals of my project were compromised by the mistake then certainly I would start with an apology. However, I more than likely would be focused on fixing the problem than on soothing bruised egos. Apologies are easy, fixing things is hard. This whole thing still boggles my mind. The whole arab world hated us before those pictures. They will hate us next year and probalby for the next century. I don't view that as our problem. What is disturbing to me is the idea that no one in the media views us as being at war. Why on earth would you do something that inflames your enemies, both declared and undeclared? When at war, you handle these types of things out of the public eye. The soldiers could have been disiciplined and the problem corrected without giving the enemy more fodder. I'm glad 60 minutes got the big scoop, I hope American POW's don't have to pay for it.

[Swifty_Johnson]

The whole arab world hated us before those pictures.

Nothing new they've hated the west after we stopped Islam from taking over the world with the crusades.

Why on earth would you do something that inflames your enemies, both declared and undeclared?

Becasue we are a free an open soceity that airs out our dirty laundry.

I'm glad 60 minutes got the big scoop, I hope American POW's don't have to pay for it.

I'm not, 60 minutes is trash and they endangered American lifes for ratings.

Swifty

[Allison]

Why on earth would you do something that inflames your enemies, both declared and undeclared? When at war, you handle these types of things out of the public eye. The soldiers could have been disiciplined and the problem corrected without giving the enemy more fodder. I'm glad 60 minutes got the big scoop, I hope American POW's don't have to pay for it.I have to confess, I've had some trouble resolving this issue. If the pictures were on my desk, and it were up to me to decide whether or not to publish, I honestly don't know what I'd do.

It takes a whole lot of faith in government to assume anything will be taken care of without public scrutiny. The press, no matter what you think of them, are largely tasked with the often unhappy job of performing oversight on our government. Part of that job is informing the public. We do live in a free an open society, and that's not always easy or comfortable when put to the test, like in this case.

It's easy and tempting to say that in this case, so much damage is caused by the release of the photos that the press should have sat on the story. But, it's certainly dangerous territory for the press to start second guessing when it's okay to have a free press, and when it's not. Who performs oversight on them? Who draws the line? What objective source can we all trust to decide what we are told and what we are not? Personally, I think if it ever becomes acceptable for the media to start witholding information from the public, the abuses of this gatekeeping activity will cause us to lose even more faith in them. And that's something we really don't want.

I have a fairly healthy skepticism of those in power, including the press. So for me, it's a black and white issue: Free press or no free press. I don't think I'd trust any gray.

But, I can't deny the fact that I wish these photos had never been published. I think their damage to our credibility in the world is being severely underestimated by some. However, ultimately, I don't lay the blame on the press. To me, blaming them would be like blaming a D.A. for the affects of the crimes he prosecutes. The people who are ultimately responsible are the people who committed or ordered these acts, and more importantly to me, the people who who were stupid enough to allow these pictures into the public domain.

Edit: I should clarify. I'm not saying I believe the press has the right to publish anything they want, or that the public has a right to know everything that's published. Obviously, we shouldn't report advance troop movements, covert operations, the names of CIA operatives (little dig there ;) ) , and the like. There is a gray area. But I guess where I draw the line is when something is happening outside the norm, when there are allegations of wrong-doing. Then, even if I'd rather not know, I can't blame the press for reporting it.

[Hammer]

I guess I consider this similair to the outing of the CIA agent. It was wrong for the leaker to out her and it was wrong to report it. I can't allow the reporter(s) a free pass in either of these situations. I guess I see it as more about breaking the story that will sell the advertising more than making sure we have an informed electorate. In the case of the photos, the story had been broken already. The pictures only served to fan the flames. I think before it's over these pictures will aired as much as the footage of the 9/11 tower footage.

Thinking back to the story of the contractors that were killed. I never saw the full video. Fox wouldn't run the full video, just a clip of the burnt out vehicals. I expect that seeing the full video would not have informed me any more than the edited clip with a verbal description. It would have only served to enrage me. To me, that was a good editoral decision.

[Allison]

I see your point, Hammer. But, the outing of the CIA agent isn't really a good analogy (I know I know.. I brought it up :p ) In that case, she had absolutely nothing to do with the story. These pictures do. Honestly, I don't know that I would have believed what happened if I hadn't seen it myself. Nakey human pyramids? Suuuure. Tell me another. ;)

But, again, I see your point. And I am conflicted on this. The more I think about it, the more I realize how complicated the notion of a free press really is. I'm reminded of something a great man once said, "With great power, comes great responsibility." ;) Certainly, our media in general seems to have become more motivated by profit than responsible reporting, and sometimes, it's hard to tell the difference.

[Hammer]

Nice quote:) It stikes me how much things have changed. It use to be the reporters were American first and reporters second. That's clearly changed with the current generation. Is this better for the country? I'm not really sure. State run press is clearly a bad thing, but there times when ones duty to the country must be considered. I really can't help but think it will be payback time for the next Americans held hostage. Hopefully it will only involve nudity and pictures.

[Boom]

They ruined nekky human pyramids for everyone.

Jerks.

[Rooster]

LOL Boom.

Here's my take on the whole thing.

Court Martials all around. Any found guilty of knowingly breaking Geneva convention should be handed over to Al-Sadr. Any officer convicted of directing someone to break Geneva convention guidelines should be handed over to Al-Sadr. This is truly a stain on the US Military. It is unacceptable under all but the most heinous terms (ie, they've done things that would make Manson blush).

What the press is doing now is purely political. Investigations started in January. Red Cross brought it to light in February. Pentagon changed command at the prison and took steps to correct problems. More investigations occured and more steps were taken to preven problems. This is all but completely squashed at this point.

What the papers are doing is pretending like this stuff is now going on and asking why the military is not doing anything about it. No one was calling for Rumsfeld's head until someone heard that Bush wasn't happy with Rummy about learning about the picture leak after it happened. Now it appears to be a "jump Rummy's shit" bandwagon going around (not in here, but the politicians are).

It's a very messed up situation which I really wish could be reversed.

Regardless, they hate us, they always have. This isn't going to change that.

[PoxTheSmall]

Regardless, they hate us, they always have. This isn't going to change that

So true. The prison crap didn't need to happen to make folks hate us there. They'd have jumped our crap if we weren't fluffing the prisoner's pillows...

[Allison]

I don't think the media is being political, Rooster. I think they're just playing what sells. Laci Peterson, Kobe Bryant, and prison sex scandals. It's all the same. People love a good show, even with their news. Not that sensationalist reporting is that much better than politically motivated reporting, but it is different.

As far as Rumsfeld taking heat ... he should take some, if you ask me. But I think some people are going a bit too far with it. I mean, if it turns out he knew what was going on and didn't do anything about it, or that he encouraged it, or tried to cover it up, then yeah, he should resign. But, I haven't seen any evidence of that, so I think calls for his resignation at this point are presumtive in the least, if not blatently political. Besides, if Rummy resigns, Wolfowitz would likely replace him. *shudder* :eek: ;)

[Rooster]

Yes, he should take some, but I'm sure the President getting peeved at him is probably enough... (he strikes me as a man hard to piss off)

[Noleader]

Yes, he should take some, but I'm sure the President getting peeved at him is probably enough... (he strikes me as a man hard to piss off)
LOL!!!!!

Where did you get that from? The fact that he invaded Iraq for the large supplies of WMD or that the state he was governer for has the highest execution rates? :cheese:

[Rooster]

Hey now, on the fact alone that Texas has the highest execution rate is enough for me to vote him in.