Disney blocking Moore documentary

[Tammarion]

http://www.canoe.ca/JamMovies/may5_moore-ap.html

Okay. I personally hate Michael Moore's guts - dude is like the Left-wing version of Powell's UN WMD speech.

But I have to ask Disney/Miramax - WTF did you expect? It's Michael Fricking Moore dammit.

[Allison]

Lol, yeah.

[]LoL[Harm]

Yeah, I never liked the fact that Disney bought Miramax, kinda hamstrings them on their ability to release any indy film they wish.

[Noleader]

Moore is a retard. He calls his films a documentary but it is nothing more then his political spin on a event.

[]LoL[Harm]

Yeah I call it just another Indy film :), however I thought his spin on the gun/death/murder issue in Bowling for Columbine was pretty damn good, cause he's right. This is a Nation of Fear.

Will Your Tap Water Kill You? News at a 11!!

Will Your Child Die on the School Bus!?! News at a 11!


I haven't watched news in years, they over hype and misinform more than they inform.

[Swifty_Johnson]

Actually Bowling for Columbine getting an oscar was a disgrace to the awards. That movie wasn't a documentry, it was setup after setup followed by lie after lie. Like when he goes into the back to open an account to get a free gun. It took two months for him to go though the paperwork to get the free gun, and the bank agreed to his request to film him getting the gun at the bank. What does the "documentary" show? Moore walking into the bank and getting a free gun, no two months of paper work. That whole thing was a big lie.

Also, Disney said day one, "We aren't releasing this film." So Moore and Mirmax did this to drum up more publicty for the film and to get some free press.

Swifty

[Mulletious]

disgrace to the awards? please....the academy awards are a huge joke already

[Hammer]

Mullet has a point;) MM films are docutainment.

[Boom]

Roger and Me was brilliant.

[]LoL[Harm]

Actually Bowling for Columbine getting an oscar was a disgrace to the awards. That movie wasn't a documentry, it was setup after setup followed by lie after lie. Like when he goes into the back to open an account to get a free gun. It took two months for him to go though the paperwork to get the free gun, and the bank agreed to his request to film him getting the gun at the bank. What does the "documentary" show? Moore walking into the bank and getting a free gun, no two months of paper work. That whole thing was a big lie.
If that's what you're focusing on then you missed the entire message, that is if you watched it. He was showing a correlation that though guns are VERY easy to come by, other countries that have more guns per capita still have less gun deaths. It was a setup but in a direction that most republicans would like, in the direction that guns are not the reason we have so many people going around killing each other with them.

[Grundy]

What do you think is the NRA's position on the Iraqi rebels giving up their weapons?

CNN Banner runs here: this segment of the Bushie Revenge for my Father's Fookup War has been brought to you by the NRA. And now a word from our sponsor....

Kinder, gentler mid-50s femail voice: Don't you feel safe with a gun? I do. Well you would feel alot safer if it was warm and the chamber was empty. (vacuous smile) Remember...don't ever give up your guns (background music Happiness is a Warm Gun)

I am Bushie the Revenge Seeker and I approve of this message.

[Swifty_Johnson]

If that's what you're focusing on then you missed the entire message, that is if you watched it. He was showing a correlation that though guns are VERY easy to come by, other countries that have more guns per capita still have less gun deaths.

So it's okay to lie if your message is good?

Okay, How about

The faked hunting accident where the dog shoots the hunter? (staged)

BLind man getting a gun license. He's not really blind, he can see shapes.

B-52 Plaque, in the film Moore claims "The plaque underneath it proudly proclaims that this plane killed Vietnamese people on Christmas Eve 1972."

In reality,

"B-52D Stratofortress. 'Diamond Lil.' Dedicated to the men and women of the Strategic Air Command who flew and maintained the B-52D throughout its 26-year history in the command. Aircraft 55-083, with over 15,000 flying hours, is one of two B-52Ds credited with a confirmed MIG kill during the Vietnam Conflict Flying out of U-Tapao Royal Thai Naval Airfield in southern Thailand, the crew of 'Diamond Lil' shot down a MIG northeast of Hanoi during 'Linebacker II' action on Christmas Eve, 1972."

Here is a website about his "film" and some of the distortions he makes.

http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/

Swifty

[Boom]

BLind man getting a gun license. He's not really blind, he can see shapes.

:rolly:

[Swifty_Johnson]

True, I wouldn't want to be around the man shooting a gun, but at least he's not blind.

Swifty

[Rooster]

Actually, I think that qualifies as legally blind.

[Roscoes_C&W]

They should give out guns to everyone for free and let people kill people as a form of population control. I would love to go on a shooting spree. That would be a blast. People need to die more often, I don't want to go to war in 20 years over water.

[Allison]

Lol, Swifty, when you talked about Moore going in and getting a free gun right away ... after two months, I started thinking about how media images are filtered and manipulated to achieve a desired affect. And, lol ... the first thing that came to mind was Bush in a flight suit on an aircraft carrier. :rolly:

Not to bash Bush here, it was a brilliant tactic, at the time. But, my point is that attempts to distort the truth and to manipulate us are made every ... single ... day, in a much more subtle and frightening way than Michael Moore does, and by people with real power.

I'm not really all that familiar with the body of Michael Moore's work, only his reputation. And I've only seen bits of Bowling for Columbine, so I can't really comment on that.

[Boom]

Ailia, rent Roger and Me. Its good. I'm not a Moore fan by a long shot. Just that particular film is a must see.

[Roscoes_C&W]

Is it like Mac & Me? Cause I seen Mac & Me and it made me cry when that cute little alien had to leave. I don't want to have to go through that again.

:cry:

[Boom]

Well there is no cute little alien, but a bunny gets killed.

[spyder913]

Bowling for columbine is definitely edited creatively.

[Swifty_Johnson]

Not to bash Bush here, it was a brilliant tactic, at the time. But, my point is that attempts to distort the truth and to manipulate us are made every ... single ... day, in a much more subtle and frightening way than Michael Moore does, and by people with real power.

When someone make a documentary, they CANNOT distort the truth, than it's no longer a documentary. IF he called it a political statement movie, fine, but he didn't it was billed as a documentary.

Swifty

[Allison]

When someone make a documentary, they CANNOT distort the truth, than it's no longer a documentary. IF he called it a political statement movie, fine, but he didn't it was billed as a documentary.

SwiftyLol, sure they can. That's like saying Fox News isn't news because it's slanted to the right.

[Swifty_Johnson]

doc·u·men·ta·ry

Presenting facts objectively without editorializing or inserting fictional matter, as in a book or film.

Nope, if you distort the truth it's not a documentary.

Swifty

[spyder913]

He shouldn't have called it a documentary.

Other people have called movies 'comedies' when they weren't funny.

[Rooster]

And the ban on his movie was a stunt.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=518901

What a fucking prick.

[Figtoria]

I liked Roger and Me too, Boom.

[Badger]

Anyone who watches MM movies and thinks they are anything but phoney...should be deported to France.

As for Guns? Well considering a huge amount of Americans have no frikkin clue about gun safety, yeah I can understand why we have so much gun violence. That and the left is working overtime to corrupt everything that was once good about our country. Outdoorsmanship is WRONG now, shooting WRONG, hunting EVIL, hiking DESTRUCTIVE, fishing CRUEL....just to name a few.

MM is a loser, he hates life and everything about it, and he feels very guilty for his wealth too. So he projects his hate onto everything good. Typical psychopath.

FILTHY STINKING ROTEEN LIAR FROM HELL (http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=518901)

[Mulletious]

Outdoorsmanship is WRONG now, shooting WRONG, hunting EVIL, hiking DESTRUCTIVE, fishing CRUEL....just to name a few.
.

what are you talking about? i do most of these things and no one ever says this to me..

[]LoL[Harm]

Anyone who overgeneralizes and is over-accusatory should be deported to France.

Paranoia, something that Bowling for Columbine pointed out as a factor in our "love of murder": That and the left is working overtime to corrupt everything that was once good about our country.
See I'm evil and trying to corrupt our country because I think someone should have a license to operate a gun which would require a test on safety and proper gun use. I own a gun, I own a license to carry concealed. And it was far too damn easy for me to get it.

[spyder913]

As for Guns? Well considering a huge amount of Americans have no frikkin clue about gun safety, yeah I can understand why we have so much gun violence. That and the left is working overtime to corrupt everything that was once good about our country. Outdoorsmanship is WRONG now, shooting WRONG, hunting EVIL, hiking DESTRUCTIVE, fishing CRUEL....just to name a few.
Yeah... I'm going to have to disagree with this whole statement. I am someone you would classify as 'lefty' and shooting is fine (gun saftey = great), hunting is fine (do it with a bow if you want to be a real man), hiking is great (pack it in pack it out), fishing is fine. Why would we get called tree-huggin hippies if we didn't like being outdoors? You can't maintain a relationship with the trees unless you visit them.

[Badger]

Envronmentalists are what Im referring to, some of the farthest left people ive seen around. Pure Commies IMO.

The people standing in front of hunters so they cant shoot deer.
The people trying to ban all winter recreational vehicles.
The people saying we shouldnt be allowed to own guns.
The people saying killing of any animal for any reason should be punishable by death.
The people saying we shouldnt get oil from Alaska.
The people taking away all Christianity from the public.
The people saying its ok to kill defenseless unborn babies, no matter how close to birth.
The people forcing leftist indoctrination in colleges for any infraction of the PC code.
The people saying we should bow down to the World Court and the UN.
The people saying the USA is the worst polluter in the world.

Sorry but Michael Moore is like that. And a great many young college kids are too. Completely and totally out of touch with the ideals of America and the intentions of the founding fathers. Every time I turn on TV or radio I get barraged by sex and gayness, as do my kids.

People who say Boy Scouts are evil because they dont want gay men taking their kids out camping.
People who say we cant have the 10 Commandments at a courthouse.
People who say I cant fly a flag on my propertly because its an eyesore.
People who think the government should control every aspect of our life and give all my money away to people who wont get off their asses and work.
People who say affirmative action is not racist.

I could go on but im talking to a brick wall. :bang:

[Roscoes_C&W]

What about the people who tell me I can't smoke pot everynight I get home from work and watch TV?

[Rooster]

I think pot should be treated like alcohol when it comes to driving, working, etc... the rules are already there (DUI, under the influence... instead of DWI, while intoxicated). It's certainly not any more harmful as drinking and smoking (at the same time).

[spyder913]

alright taking the bait here:

Envronmentalists are what Im referring to, some of the farthest left people ive seen around. Pure Commies IMO.

The people standing in front of hunters so they cant shoot deer.
The people trying to ban all winter recreational vehicles.
The people saying we shouldnt be allowed to own guns.
The people saying killing of any animal for any reason should be punishable by death.
The people saying we shouldnt get oil from Alaska.
The people taking away all Christianity from the public.
The people saying its ok to kill defenseless unborn babies, no matter how close to birth.
The people forcing leftist indoctrination in colleges for any infraction of the PC code.
The people saying we should bow down to the World Court and the UN.
The people saying the USA is the worst polluter in the world.
people that say hurting animals should be punishable by death are probably not the same people as the ones who say it's ok to kill defenseless unborn babies, no matter how close to birth. You've made a great list of super-radical ideologies. That doesn't mean that many people share them, or even that many people share many of them.


Sorry but Michael Moore is like that. And a great many young college kids are too.And there are lot of college age radical right wing people. What's the problem? It's called variety.


Completely and totally out of touch with the ideals of America and the intentions of the founding fathers.America is not a nation of one set of ideals. If we were, it would be mandated by the government. These people who may have differing views than you or even differing views than the majority are still Americans, and their opinions are no less valid than yours.


Every time I turn on TV or radio I get barraged by sex and gayness, as do my kids.'gayness'? Please lets not start that up again. Sex is used in a lot of advertisements and entertainment. If you don't like it, there is plenty of non-sexual programming out there (Discover, TLC, History, Disney are just a few examples of relatively sex-free stations).


People who say Boy Scouts are evil because they dont want gay men taking their kids out camping.There should be no more problem with this than allowing mothers to come along, which has started to be a lot more common. If you said 'pedophile' in there, that would make more sense, as not wanting a pedophile to take your kid camping is perfectly legit.


People who say we cant have the 10 Commandments at a courthouse.Not appropriate. Do you feel that having a 10 foot statue of budda at the courthouse is just as legit?


People who say I cant fly a flag on my propertly because its an eyesore.
People who think the government should control every aspect of our life and give all my money away to people who wont get off their asses and work.I don't know of anyone who thinks of that. Unless your flag is a rebel flag ;)


People who say affirmative action is not racist.
Affirmative action was dumb - a bandaid on the real problem, and that's why I voted for the bill to remove it from college application consideration in WA state.


I could go on but im talking to a brick wall.
I'm a brick wall?

[Allison]

Thank you, Spyder.

[Rooster]

Not appropriate. Do you feel that having a 10 foot statue of budda at the courthouse is just as legit?Buddha didn't help found this country.And there are lot of college age radical right wing people. What's the problem? It's called variety.IIRC, there's about a 70% to 25% Liberal to Conservative slant in the nations universities. That's not variety, that's indoctrination (my friends that went to college were not happy with the particular THEME if you will that many lectures had, it was practically oppressive; and my sister has already been corrupted).

[]LoL[Harm]

Buddha didn't help found this country.And in the words of our fore-fathers, niether should have God.

there's about a 70% to 25% Liberal to Conservative slant in the nations universitiesIf this were true (being that 70% of all college students were liberal minded in politics) then why don't the democrats hold the power in the government right now? That stat is way off base, a huge group of my friends 10 years ago (in college) didn't have a political compass heading, because they were not really concerned. Now if you had stated that 70% of the people in college were idealist, meaning that they thought things in the world were bad and had idealistic concepts on how to solve them and for that were "labeled" liberals I might agree.

[Noleader]

Actually Bowling for Columbine getting an oscar was a disgrace to the awards. That movie wasn't a documentry, it was setup after setup followed by lie after lie. Like when he goes into the back to open an account to get a free gun. It took two months for him to go though the paperwork to get the free gun, and the bank agreed to his request to film him getting the gun at the bank. What does the "documentary" show? Moore walking into the bank and getting a free gun, no two months of paper work. That whole thing was a big lie.

That bank needs to get robbed... WTF is wrong with these ppl. YOU ARE A BANK FOR CHRIST SAKE!!!!! DO NOT GIVE GUNS TO PEOPLE!!!!

I don't care how long the waiting period was, that is just dumb.

[spyder913]

Buddha didn't help found this country.But he's part of it. That 10 commandments monument outside a courthouse is not there to remember the countries founders, it is to symbolize justice. It should be a monument to the constitution, the ultimate document of the United States.

The 10 commandments are fine, but they are not the law. They do not belong at a courthouse.

IIRC, there's about a 70% to 25% Liberal to Conservative slant in the nations universities. That's not variety, that's indoctrination (my friends that went to college were not happy with the particular THEME if you will that many lectures had, it was practically oppressive; and my sister has already been corrupted).College is not where idealist thinking comes from (and I agree with ailia here, a lot of people are more idealist and probably being labeled as 'liberals') because I know that my though processes on most of these things were not altered by going to college. Granted I'm not taking any classes where this horrible brainwashing takes place - math is wonderfuly independent of politics.

I also know that at my school the college republicans have a pretty damn good turnout, and the UW is a very liberal atmosphere.

[]LoL[Harm]

(and I agree with ailia here, a lot of people are more idealist and probably being labeled as 'liberals') Oh so now Alli gets credit for my stuff, damn she's taking over. ;)

[Allison]

Mwuahahahahahaha!!

[Figtoria]

IIRC, there's about a 70% to 25% Liberal to Conservative slant in the nations universities. That's not variety, that's indoctrination (my friends that went to college were not happy with the particular THEME if you will that many lectures had, it was practically oppressive; and my sister has already been corrupted).

Indoctrination? You mean like force feeding philosophies and ideas on a group of impressionable young people?

Oh! Like basic training in the army? :)

Have you been to college, Roo? It's not like that. Universities are bastions of free thought. They're open to many ideas, not just the few they grew up with. In university I learned to appreciate the variety that exists in the world, not to fear it.

Sure, some of the courses are silly - myself - I have a hard time with the whole "Women's Studies herstory" stuff. But - it's a free country and people are free to try and logically argue and develop any idea they see fit.

It was young people questioning the status quo of their worlds who developed many things you believe in today; democracy, protestantism, etc.

[Rooster]

Me, no. I joined the military, and they didn't push any mindset on anyone other than follow any lawful order your commanding officer gives you. There was no "liberals suck" or "war is great". Too much time spent actually training for our jobs to spend time philosophizing (sp?) about politics. We were there to do a job and we did it. Nearly all my my friends decided to go to college, and they (as I stated) actually DID experience what I'm talking about. So maybe your college is different, but from the fairly good sampling of friends I have (different colleges), liberalism is rampant and oppressive. I'm sorry if this contradicts your "bastions of free thought" but that's a joke.

It's rediculous what colleges push on kids today (or hell, 5-10 years ago).

And I don't fear the differences. I just think they're wrong for this country.

[Allison]

Rooster, keep in mind that even centrist views are seen as liberal from the extreme right, and conservative from the extreme left. Didn't you once say that your friends were more to the right than you are? :)

Regardless, I'm curious what classes your friends experienced this liberal bias in? In my own experiences, there was never a lot of subjective discussion about the material, except in philosophy classes. And even then, my professors always took the role of facilitator, allowing the students to debate their own positions.

Were your friends maybe talking about the students themselves who were liberal? Or administrative policies regarding school groups and events? Or was it the professors? I'm just curious. Also, are we talking about one particular university or state here?

[Rooster]

No no no... I'm further right than they are (cept for one that's an officer in the military, served in Iraq recently and is now back and teaching ROTC).

ASU (App), UNC, UI (Iowa), others I don't recall right now. Professors, showing disdain for students that disagreed with their socialist views. It happens all over the place.

I can pull up at least 20 articles showing professors intent on demeaning conservatives and pushing their socialist ideals on their students.

[spyder913]

Yeah lets see it.

[Figtoria]

No no no... I'm further right than they are (cept for one that's an officer in the military, served in Iraq recently and is now back and teaching ROTC).

ASU (App), UNC, UI (Iowa), others I don't recall right now. Professors, showing disdain for students that disagreed with their socialist views. It happens all over the place.

I can pull up at least 20 articles showing professors intent on demeaning conservatives and pushing their socialist ideals on their students.


I had several profs who would play devils advocate taking up very controversial positions in order to encourage debate and thought.

But "pushing socialist ideals" on students?

Never saw that once.

[Rooster]

I'll just link a few googled sites:

http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:I848OCdvQ2AJ:www.bcheights.com/news/2004/04/20/News/Ucla-Student.Tackles.Liberal.Bias-664476.shtml+professors+universities+liberal+bias&hl=en&lr=lang_en

http://www.dailycampus.com/news/2003/01/31/Commentary/Professor.Show.Liberal.Bias-357180.shtml

http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:XezbkzLgJYgJ:www.nationalreview.com /nrof_bartlett/bartlett091503.asp+professors+universities+liberal +bias&hl=en&lr=lang_en

http://www.lsureveille.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2003/01/29/3e3771d1de02f?in_archive=1

http://www.gopusa.com/news/2003/october/1015_horowitz.shtml

http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:GntvL7FqM8MJ:www.spartacus.ws/001005.html+professors+universities+liberal+bias&hl=en&lr=lang_en

http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:GntvL7FqM8MJ:www.spartacus.ws/001005.html+professors+universities+liberal+bias&hl=en&lr=lang_en

http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:a9aJnmkL44AJ:www.ocweekly.com/ink/03/36/news-moxley.php+professors+universities+liberal+bias&hl=en&lr=lang_en

http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:y5S1ID8hGykJ:www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/1/3/60835.shtml+professors+universities+liberal+bias&hl=en&lr=lang_en

http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:1jsMpEx5Sv0J:www.redandblack.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2003/11/10/3faee34cdcd22+professors+universities+liberal+bias &hl=en&lr=lang_en

http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:9IY-vFgZ47UJ:news.christiansunite.com/Religion_News/religion00864.shtml+professors+universities+libera l+bias&hl=en&lr=lang_en

http://www.dailyutahchronicle.com/news/2003/09/10/Opinion/Masked.Marxism.The.Effects.Of.Political.Affiliatio n.Of.Professors.On.Campus.jone-461338.shtml

http://www.noindoctrination.org/related.shtml

I could go on, but I'm bored now.

[Rooster]

I just can't fathom the idea that you guys don't know about this stuff.

[Allison]

I don't know, Rooster. I don't see any real studies that have been done in this area. Even if we were to agree, for the sake of argument, that the majority of the faculty members were liberals, you'd have a long way to go before you could show that their political affiliations affected their curricula.

[]LoL[Harm]

I just can't fathom the idea that you guys don't know about this stuff.
I'm in college NOW, and I don't see this, and I'm not liberal and am quick to notice political bias. However I'm only taking psychology and medical classes, perhaps since they are sciences they don't have the "liberal brainwashing" in them. However, when I hear the word "brainwashing" I think of idiots who believe in UFO's and who have had their asses probed by chromed probulators. Brainwashing in College, you have to be a paranoid idiot to believe in that. Brainwashing is for the media, and the rest of TV, you know the place that raises the majority of our youth. ;)

[Rooster]

Well, given all of what I've posted, as well as my friends experiences in college say otherwise.

[Allison]

Yeah but Rooster, you have to admit that your few friends aren't exactly a representative and objective sampling of our nation's universities. You have some rl friends who say they experienced a liberal bias in the classroom. You have some friends here who say they haven't.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen here and there, or that it isn't wrong when professors do exert udue political influence on their students. Nor am I arguing that most professors aren't liberal. It wouldn't surprise me if liberals are more prevalent in academic America just as conservatives are more prevalent in corporate America. But that fact alone is meaningless unless those people inject their politics into their profession. We know it happens in corporate America because it's often a big news story when it does (Sinclair Broadcast comes to mind as a recent example.) And as I said, even though I haven't personally witnessed it, I'm sure it happens in academia as well. It shouldn't happen. And we should work against that sort of thing when we see it.

But, to what extent do professors and faculty allow their politics to influence their curricula, that's the real question here. If your "70% liberal slant" was referring merely to the politics of the faculty, I won't dispute that. It seems reasonable and there are some studies to support that. But I don't see how you could claim that 70% of the curricula in our nation's universities also has a liberal slant. I can't find one study to support this. I'm not saying it's untrue, just that I see no conclusive evidence of it.

[]LoL[Harm]

I talked with some of my buddies who got varies degrees, and they said that there were a few professors that had a slant to their teachings, however it tended to be along the lines of the type of class. My one buddy who got a BA in English said his literature/english classes were generally taught by liberal minded individuals where as his sciences were generally more conservative. But he had only a few classes out of 4 years of college at Marshall where his teacher injected a slant in to their teachings.

[spyder913]

all these articles show is that the teachers are liberal. They're still jumping to the conclusion that there is brainwashing going on.

There are also a few incidents of bad teaching in there - like the teacher harassing the ROTC student. I have never seen anything like that, and I know that people would have complained about something like that.

from http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:9IY-vFgZ47UJ:news.christiansunite.com/Religion_News/religion00864.shtml+professors+universities+libera l+bias&hl=en&lr=lang_en :
While Lakoff believes most college professors are politically liberal, he contends that this is not a problem so long as they do not allow their personal views to skew their teaching.

[Rooster]

But he's not saying they DON'T. Just saying, that's fine, as long as they keep it to themselves.

My sister is SOOO anti-christian (Christians are oppresive and the root of most of societies evils), anti-conservative, anti-capitalism... it's VERY scary. She wasn't anything like that before UNCG.

That's the best example of what I've seen, but my friends were pretty determined to not cave to their professors wishes. What I've heard (from my friends) professors say about conservative minded students is utterly pathetic and unprofessional.

You can say "I haven't seen it" all you want... but it's out there and my friends HAVE experirenced it, as well as more than a few individuals around the country, otherwise I certainly would have been able to pull up as much information as I have.

[]LoL[Harm]

My sister is SOOO anti-christian (Christians are oppresive and the root of most of societies evils), anti-conservative, anti-capitalism... it's VERY scary. She wasn't anything like that before UNCG. Don't worry too much on this Rooster, it's often just a stage. I went through one very much like what you are describing here. I called it the Idealist viewpoint. After you get a little more experience with the real world you tend to lighten your extreme views that you form during your college years. Give it some time.

Also, for your part, you need to find out why a persons differing views scares you. The world would be a horrid place if we all thought/felt the same way. In fact we would have no need to communicate since there would be no need to share ideas.

For her part, the Christian religion does not have a very good history. No religion really does. We think so poorly of the Islamic religion for it's "holy wars" when the Christian religion has done the same thing, albeit centuries ago. It was not too far back that raping, pillaging, torture, holy wars and slavery were common place for the Christian religion. It's when I first learned of all the hate that religions brought upon the world that I formed ideas that seem to mirror what your sister is thinking right now. I didn't learn this from a "liberal" teacher, I learned it from the History channel. From the Holy Crusades to the Inquisition I became disgusted with all of it. However, time and the real world softened those views, as I began focusing more on the positive things those establishments gave to the world.

Just give her some time and don't persecute her ;).

[Figtoria]

My sister is SOOO anti-christian (Christians are oppresive and the root of most of societies evils), anti-conservative, anti-capitalism... it's VERY scary. She wasn't anything like that before UNCG. .


You mean your sister grew up, stopped believing in fairy tales and decided to take responsibility for her own morality and life.

Gratz to her.

What's scary is the idea that critical thinking and reasoning should be squashed down in favour of superstition and lies.

[Rooster]

lol... yall are too funny (cept Harm, you're probably right about the college thing... except she's now 28).

Figgy, you're funny. Take responsbility? Is that what liberals do when they preach the victim mindset? When they want to take from the successful and give to those that refuse to work? Yeah, taking responsbility, when liberals learn what it means, then maybe your statement won't be so freaking hilarious.

[Rooster]

Well, from a more intellectual standpoint, I find that someone decrying the value of faith and that of religious works in general, much of which has been substantiated by science is sorely lacking in both mental capacity, reasoning, and morale maturity. As we only use 17% of our brain (or so), and the odds of random protoplasm coming together (without guidance from something) and forming intillegent life, and that we're so mighty that we can destroy the world, just seems to be very naive.

There are too many coincidences, similar religous works from completely separate parts of the world, wonders of the world, unexplicable experiences in life to call religious works lies, and faith, superstitions. It takes a narrow minded, frightened, morally bankrupt individual to demean faith. If faith were a fallacy, then please explain how 85%+ of the Earth's population maintain some faith? I guess 85% of the world's population isn't as smart as the other 15% that don't believe in a moral code of beliefs.

Yes, there are some in the intelligencia that feel faith is a crutch. Unfortunately for them, they are not quite as smart as they think they are. They overanalyze and dismiss things that cannot be explained as "luck" or "coincidence". They have never been lucky enough to experience small miracles, blessings or found faith when they have nothing else.

Even some non-religious people "see the light" in near death experiences. They have a strange calming near the end of their life, knowing all will be well -- or perhaps gripped with an unworldly fear.

It takes a very small person indeed to dismiss religion and the faith that it brings.

[Rooster]

Allison, that was partly for you, before you deleted your post. :)

I figured I could take a little more time and explain how silly Figgy sounds.

Btw, I'm not even religious. I did grow up going to Sunday school, learning about the Bible from a Methodist's perspective, but I'm definitely not what you'd call a church-goer, much less a bible thumper.

I certainly don't believe any one religion is right, and generally find those that are most exclusive (vs inclusive) are most apt to be more false than those that are more encompassing (inclusive).

Religion is to faith as Political parties are to political ideals.

Rarely does the first match perfectly with the second. But most of the time one can find enough common ground to get along with folks of similar thought.

[Figtoria]

lol... yall are too funny (cept Harm, you're probably right about the college thing... except she's now 28).

Figgy, you're funny. Take responsbility? Is that what liberals do when they preach the victim mindset? When they want to take from the successful and give to those that refuse to work? Yeah, taking responsbility, when liberals learn what it means, then maybe your statement won't be so freaking hilarious.


I'm not talking about liberals and conservatives. Politics are boring. I'm talking about bigger ideas, bigger concepts.

Sorry you didn't get it.

[Figtoria]

Once upon a time there was a frightened little cave child. "Mommy Ooga, Daddy Ooga got squashed by the giant mamoth. I miss him, I want to see him." The mother trying to calm her grieving child promises, "Yes Baby Ooga, be a good boy, eat all your legumes and you will get to see Daddy Ooga again someday in a magic land called Heaven."

It's a nice story, a comforting story, a gentle story - a perfect story for telling by the light of the fire in a dark cave when no one is even sure the sun will come up the next day. But it's only a story.


The 17% of the brain thing is an urban myth. I'm not even gonna go there.

http://www.snopes.com/science/stats/10percnt.htm


I'll ignore your continued ad hominem attack on me. This time, I"m "lacking mental capacity, reasoning, and morale maturity". Wow. But I do know how to spell moral.

If you can give me some facts showing me that god exists, I'd be really excited.

Oh wait - I"m also a "narrow minded, frightened, morally bankrupt individual."

Is that the sum of your argument? Why not try "I know you are, but what am I?" At least that would be funny.

If faith were a fallacy, then please explain how 85%+ of the Earth's population maintain some faith? I guess 85% of the world's population isn't as smart as the other 15% that don't believe in a moral code of beliefs.

Illogical through and through.

I believe that 85% of the worlds population maintains a faith because it is easy and comforting. And way, way less scary than the alternative - that there is no "daddy" watching out over us all. We're just here - with what we have, until we're dead - and then we're gone.

You conclude that because the other 15% don't believe in a religion that they therefore also don't have a "moral code of beliefs".

How do you know that? Just because a person doesn't believe in god doesn't mean that he/she doesn't have a moral code of beliefs.

Are you suggesting that if you suddenly found out tomorrow that there is, for certain, no god, you'd go wild and start murdering and stealing with wild abandon?

I don't need god to tell me not to do that stuff. I can logically and reasonably conclude that there is a better, more productive way to live.

There are too many coincidences, similar religous works from completely separate parts of the world, wonders of the world, unexplicable experiences in life to call religious works lies, and faith, superstitions


There is a scientific explanation for everything. We may not always know the explanation, just like we didn't always know the earth was round, but it's all there just waiting to be discovered.

[Allison]

Allison, that was partly for you, before you deleted your post. :)

For the record, the post I deleted said, Lol, here we go again. That's it. (How that could have contributed to setting you off into a defense of religion, I have no idea.) I immediately deleted it because one, it didn't add to the discussion, and two, I didn't want to continue to participate in the discussion. But, now I have to come back here and make a big deal of defending a post that didn't say anything because you make it sound like I attacked your religious beliefs or something. I didn't. Sorry if that's the way you took it.

[Rooster]

Alli, I wasn't saying your post was attacking mine.. I was just thinking that mine didn't exactly sound like it came from me. There was certainly a more eloquent way of saying it. I just didn't take the time earlier.

Figgy, I'm glad you think science can prove everything. I hope it gives you comfort at night. But I did expect better retorts. I find it amusing you think 4+ billion people have to believe in (what you call) lies to be comforted in this world. For one so "enlightened" I would think you'd know better. You know, there's this thing call dark matter... no one can really prove it's there, but ya know what, knowledgable scientists "believe" it's there. But I guess that doesn't mean much to you, since you don't "believe" anything that science can't prove. Must me a small cold world you live in. I'm sorry.

[Swifty_Johnson]

I find it amusing you think 4+ billion people have to believe in

From a scientific stand point, 4+ Billion people can be wrong. Science needs some hard facts, things that religion really is lacking, it's not called faith for nothing.

Look at the "Church" of Scientology. This "church" is attracting people left and right, does that make their teachings right?

So Rooster, god gave us the ability to think for ourselfs, and also the ability to question god's existance. Free will is a woudnerful thing, lets us attain things that people thought were impossible years ago.

Each and every person has before them a path to choose, and EVERYONE is free to choose their path. It's god's will that people walk down those paths unmolested, and it's not right to belittle them for choosing the path that they choose.

Rooster, you owe Fig an apology, and a few Hail Marys to our lord.

Swifty

[Figtoria]

Must me a small cold world you live in. I'm sorry.


On the contrary! I live in a bright, beautiful, AMAZING world full of the love and kindness of family and friends. I wake up happy every morning and I appreciate the joy and beauty of this marvellous world all day long.

I'm in constant wonder and delight at the accomplishments of our little species.

Hopefully we can all stop arguing and killing each other over bullshit, waste of time subjects like who is better - allah or god - and move on to figuring out how to be kinder to one another, how to cure the diseases that ravage our loved ones and how to better manage the finite resources on our little planet.


And I sleep very well at night.

[Lego]

You know, there's this thing call dark matter... no one can really prove it's there, but ya know what, knowledgable scientists "believe" it's there

that's not a very valid example. while it's true a scientist can't take you to a telescope and point at something and say, "that's dark matter" they know there must be something out there with the properties of dark matter or other theories that are believed to be true don't work. Unless you want to tell me that whole 'gravity' thing is bunk.

And besides, thats why they're called 'theories'. If some other scientist comes along with better evidence and says, hey i think it works 'this' way then the science community will embrace that knowledge instead, and not tell them they can't say such things or they'll burn forever after they've died.

[Allison]

Alli, I wasn't saying your post was attacking mine..
Well alright then. :p

[spyder913]

But he's not saying they DON'T. Just saying, that's fine, as long as they keep it to themselves.He's also not saying they do. You said something is definitely happening with no proof other than 'there are a lot of liberal professors'.

You can say "I haven't seen it" all you want... but it's out there and my friends HAVE experirenced it, as well as more than a few individuals around the country, otherwise I certainly would have been able to pull up as much information as I have.
And you can say you have seen it all you want and it is still only a few cases. That doesn't make it a huge nation wide consipiracy to indoctrinate everyone to the liberal cause.

Furthermore, even if there was a corrolation college graduates and some amount of 'brainwashing' like you notice with your sister, maybe there is some other cause.

Many people feel the same way about the military 'brainwashing' recruits to be the exact opposite. Personally, I feel that it's much more likely that the military and college are more likely to EMPHASIZE the viewpoints because it is a time of huge growth for people. As people change, they redefine themselves and examining beliefs can be a huge part of that.

[spyder913]

Well, from a more intellectual standpoint, I find that someone decrying the value of faith and that of religious works in general, much of which has been substantiated by science is sorely lacking in both mental capacity, reasoning, and morale maturity. As we only use 17% of our brain (or so), and the odds of random protoplasm coming together (without guidance from something) and forming intillegent life, and that we're so mighty that we can destroy the world, just seems to be very naive.
There is definite value in faith. But some people don't think it's all that important to themselves. What is naive is thinking that you are right just because the 'odds' are against your viewpoint. The reason that some people can suspend disbelief over the huge 'odds' (which we don't know because we haven't seen a whole lot of trials) is because we have a successful example - earth.

There are too many coincidences, similar religous works from completely separate parts of the world, wonders of the world, unexplicable experiences in life to call religious works lies, and faith, superstitions. It takes a narrow minded, frightened, morally bankrupt individual to demean faith. If faith were a fallacy, then please explain how 85%+ of the Earth's population maintain some faith? I guess 85% of the world's population isn't as smart as the other 15% that don't believe in a moral code of beliefs.
As fig said, religion!=morals.

...They have never been lucky enough to experience small miracles, blessings or found faith when they have nothing else.Experiencing a "miracle" is a kind of proof for many people.

It takes a very small person indeed to dismiss religion and the faith that it brings.Yeah... to you. That doesn't mean it works the same for all of us.

[spyder913]

Great post there swifty.. just had to ask this:

Look at the "Church" of Scientology. This "church" is attracting people left and right, does that make their teachings right?It may be really really really wacky, but that doesn't necessarily make it wrong does it?

[Rooster]

If you'll note, I never said that you have to be religious to have morals. Nor did I say that you're less than anyone else if you don't subscribe to a particular religion.

What I said was, someone who feels that religion has no place or value, is "sorely lacking in both mental capacity, reasoning, and [moral] maturity".

I myself went through an aetheist/agnostic phase. But I think everyone does. Some people just don't come out of it, usually a result of being too jaded. :(

[Swifty_Johnson]

It may be really really really wacky, but that doesn't necessarily make it wrong does it?

Depends on your point of view. If you are into cult churchs started on a bet, go for it.

Swifty

[spyder913]

If you'll note, I never said that you have to be religious to have morals. Nor did I say that you're less than anyone else if you don't subscribe to a particular religion.

What I said was, someone who feels that religion has no place or value, is "sorely lacking in both mental capacity, reasoning, and [moral] maturity".

Roo I was responding to this here:
If faith were a fallacy, then please explain how 85%+ of the Earth's population maintain some faith? I guess 85% of the world's population isn't as smart as the other 15% that don't believe in a moral code of beliefs.

[Rooster]

and I was replying to the thread in general... when I dont have much time I have to kill as many birds with one stone as possible :)

[Tammarion]

Theres an interesting book I was looking at - "Kicking the Sacred Cow" by James P. Hogan.

Basically he takes a potshot at Evolution, the Big Bang, and Relativity in the half that I've looked at so far. Interesting reading, and a reminder that if you took the sum of human observations, which are the basis for scientific theories, and set it up as a map, there'd be big fat regions labeled "Here be Monsters"

Engineering and the Truth Fairies

Science really doesn't exist. Scientific beliefs are either proved wrong, or else they quickly become engineering. Everything else is untested speculation.

[Allison]

"Here be monsters..." :rolly: