I don't understand this

[]LoL[Harm]

“I've had thorns from a rose that were worse," says Grant Hibbard, John Kerry's former commanding officer about the wound the senator received on December 2, 1968, that earned him his first Purple Heart award. Earlier this month, the Boston Globe (http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/04/14/kerry_faces_questions_over_purple_heart/) reported that Hibbard is among the Vietnam veterans who are questioning the awards that sent John Kerry home early from Vietnam. The controversy prompted Tim Russert to ask Kerry this past Sunday whether he would release all of his military records, including medical records and his officer evaluations. Kerry assured Russert that they're already publicly available at his headquarters. But they're not. And the tragic suicide of the Navy's Admiral Mike Boorda (http://www.cnn.com/US/9605/16/boorda.6p/) in 1996 is a reminder of why the media should be clamoring for their release.
Then his commanding officer should not have approved the medal, it is under his control to report for issuance. I just don't get this, I give up. The pettiness of mankind is unending.

Also, if they don't feel the Purple Heart was earned they should make changes to the formal code that defines how one goes about getting the Purple Heart. Not attack those that have earned it under the current guidelines. Printing shit like this makes me want to completely disregard anything the author has ever written before and to no longer visit the new site that posts it. She apparently has done absolutely, 100% of nothing to research her writing. I'm tired of this, I think I'm done reading the media for awhile.

Full article is here: http://www.nationalreview.com/kob/kob200404210833.asp

Below is just stuff detailing the Purple Heart if you are interested.


Criteria for earning a Purple Heart:

a. The Purple Heart is awarded in the name of the President of the United States to any member of an Armed Force who, while serving with the U.S. Armed Services after 5 April 1917, has been wounded or killed, or who has died or may hereafter die after being wounded;
(1) In any action against an enemy of the United States;

(2) In any action with an opposing armed force of a foreign country in which the Armed Forces of the United States are or have been engaged;

(3) While serving with friendly foreign forces engaged in an armed conflict against an opposing armed force in which the United States is not a belligerent party;

(4) As a result of an act of any such enemy of opposing armed forces;

(5) As the result of an act of any hostile foreign force;

(6) After 28 March 1973, as a result of an international terrorist attack against the United States or a foreign nation friendly to the United States, recognized as such an attack by the Secretary of the department concerned, or jointly by the Secretaries of the departments concerned if persons from more than one department are wounded in the attack; or,

(7) After 28 March 1973, as a result of military operations, while serving outside the territory of the United States as part of a peacekeeping force.

(8) After 7 December 1941, by weapon fire while directly engaged in armed conflict, regardless of the fire causing the wound.

(9) While held as a prisoner of war or while being taken captive.

b. A wound for which the award is made must have required treatment by a medical officer.


Legislation that supports the above:
a. The original Purple Heart, designated as the Badge of Military Merit, was established by General George Washington by order from his headquarters at Newburgh, New York, August 7, 1782. The writings of General Washington quoted in part:
"The General ever desirous to cherish a virtuous ambition in his soldiers, as well as to foster and encourage every species of Military Merit, directs that whenever any singularly meritorious action is performed, the author of it shall be permitted to wear on his facings over the left breast, the figure of a heart in purple cloth or silk, edged with narrow lace or binding. Not only instances of unusual gallantry, but also of extraordinary fidelity and essential service in any way shall meet with a due reward".

b. So far as the known surviving records show, this honor badge was granted to only three men, all of them noncommissioned officers: Sergeant Daniel Bissell of the 2d Connecticut Regiment of the Continental Line; Sergeant William Brown of the 5th Connecticut Regiment of the Continental Line, and Sergeant Elijah Churchill of the 2d Continental Dragoons, which was also a Connecticut Regiment. The original Purple Heart depicted on the first page is a copy of the badge awarded to Sergeant Elijah Churchill and is now owned by the New Windsor Cantonment, National Temple Hill Association, PO Box 525, Vails Gate, NY 12584. The only other known original badge is the badge awarded to Sergeant William Brown and is in the possession of The Society of the Cincinnati, New Hampshire Branch but differs in design by not having any lettering embroidered on the heart and the leaves are at the top only with a larger spray of leaves at the base.

c. Subsequent to the Revolution, the Order of the Purple Heart had fallen into disuse and no further awards were made. By Order of the President of the United States, the Purple Heart was revived on the 200th Anniversary of George Washington's birth, out of respect to his memory and military achievements, by War Department General Orders No. 3, dated 22 February 1932. The criteria was announced in War Department Circular dated 22 February 1932 and authorized award to soldiers, upon their request, who had been awarded the Meritorious Service Citation Certificate or were authorized to wear wound chevrons subsequent to 5 April 1917.

d. During the early period of World War II (7 Dec 41 to 22 Sep 43), the Purple Heart was awarded both for wounds received in action against the enemy and for meritorious performance of duty. With the establishment of the Legion of Merit, by an Act of Congress, the practice of awarding the Purple Heart for meritorious service was discontinued. By Executive Order 9277, dated 3 December 1942, the decoration was extended to be applicable to all services and the order required that regulations of the Services be uniform in application as far as practicable. This executive order also authorized award only for wounds received.

e. Executive Order 10409, dated 12 February 1952, revised authorizations to include the Service Secretaries subject to approval of the Secretary of Defense. Executive Order 11016, dated 25 April 1962, included provisions for posthumous award of the Purple Heart. Executive Order 12464, dated 23 February 1984, authorized award of the Purple Heart as a result of terrorist attacks or while serving as part of a peacekeeping force subsequent to 28 March 1973.

f. The Senate approved an amendment to the 1985 Defense Authorization Bill on 13 June 1985, which changed the precedent from immediately above the Good Conduct Medal to immediately above the Meritorious Service Medals. Public Law 99-145 authorized the award for wounds received as a result of "friendly fire". Public Law 104-106 expanded the eligibility date, authorizing award of the Purple Heart to a former prisoner of war who was wounded before 25 April 1962.

g. The National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year1998 (Public Law 105-85) changed the criteria to delete authorization for award of the Purple Heart Medal to any civilian national of the United States while serving under competent authority in any capacity with the Armed Forces. This change was effective 18 May 1998.

h. Order of precedence and wear of decorations is contained in Army Regulation 670-1. Policy for awards, approving authority, supply, and issue of decorations is contained in AR 600-8-22.

[Swifty_Johnson]

Then his commanding officer should not have approved the medal, it is under his control to report for issuance. I just don't get this, I give up. The pettiness of mankind is unending.

Also, if they don't feel the Purple Heart was earned they should make changes to the formal code that defines how one goes about getting the Purple Heart.

Well the Massacre at Wounded Knee earned several of the killers Congressional Medals of Honor, which were recently revoked. So changing the code that defines how the medal gets awarded might not be needed.

Kerry was somebody in Vietnam, so he could have gotten medals for things that a normal man wouldn't have been awarded them for. Appearently the "wound" was treated with the stuff you treat scrapes with, and for that he was awarded the purple heart.

Swifty

[Allison]

I agree, Harm.

The fact is, the military likes to decorate its soldiers. It's good for moral and it's good for PR. If people have a problem with the conditions under which the Purple Heart is awarded, they should take it up with someone other than the soldiers who served.

[Boom]

I thought Kerry had more than one of those medals?

[]LoL[Harm]

Kerry was somebody in Vietnam, so he could have gotten medals for things that a normal man wouldn't have been awarded them for. Appearently the "wound" was treated with the stuff you treat scrapes with, and for that he was awarded the purple heart.
That doesn't solve the issue of pettiness. And if you think getting a purple heart is a challenge talk to some veterans, talk to my dad. It's the easiest medal to come by. It doesn't matter if the Viet Cong threw a rock and hit Kerry in the head causing a bruise that required a headwrap and some tylenol. It consitutes as a wound caused by enemy action that required treatment from a medical officer. That's it, that's what gets you a purple heart. That is after you or a "recommender" submits the proper request have it signed, verified and approved by your CO (note Kerry's CO is the one quoted above as saying it was unjustified), then it gets put into the hands of an intermediate commander for final approval. It's not like Kerry awarded the thing to himself. Read the criteria...it isn't very specific. And if you need more information look up AR600-8-22.

And then ask yourself, what does it matter? Is his current standards built upon that purple heart? Is his current decisions in life based off of that medal? Will undermining a single purple heart out of three make him some kind of horrible person? Is this even news worthy when I have so many other real issues I'd rather see addressed? Pettiness is useless, and those that propagate it are just as useless it undermines current, important issues, it undermines what America should be about, it undermines what our soldiers have and are still dying for. It's ugly and needs to be wiped out. I'll take a nice extreme view of it: If you support it, leave my country, you are no good for it.

[Allison]

I thought Kerry had more than one of those medals?Bronze Star, Silver Star, and three Purple Hearts.

[Rooster]

"It's not like Kerry awarded the thing to himself."

Actually, that's what I heard.

If he goes on bragging about it, then the reasons he was awarded it should be public. I've heard that many of us medal acquisitions were acquired through what could best be described as dubious methods.

What undermines the real PH recipients, and what it stands for is Kerry's PH. It's worthless -- and sure, there are vets that have gotten a PH for similar minor issues, but I would put money that they don't go bragging about it.

On your last paragraph... I would REALLY love to see what Kerry says he will do. So far it's mostly been "I would do it better than Bush..." (but don't ask what, cause he has no clue). His whole platform appears to be Bush battering and no content. Now, to be fair, I do recall some specifics about an economic plan, but that's it so far.

[]LoL[Harm]

As far as all Army Regulations (I don't know about the branch Kerry was in, unless he was in the Army) it is impossible to award one to yourself. Some CO somewhere had to sign the proper forms, and even then it is their responsibility, not the grunt who requests the PH. In my opinion it goes back to this:

Also, if they don't feel the Purple Heart was earned they should make changes to the formal code that defines how one goes about getting the Purple Heart. Not attack those that have earned it under the current guidelines.
And I find both lacking in the department of actual solutions to the problems the nation is facing. Kerry is not a candidate I like...sadly neither is Bush.

[Allison]

What undermines the real PH recipients, and what it stands for is Kerry's PH. It's worthless
The REAL recipients? What does that mean? Tell me, in what way should the regulations be re-written to your satisfaction? Does the injury have to be life-threatening? Do you want to measure the quantity of blood loss? Does the injured person have to take time off from active duty? What?

We're not talking about the Medal of Honor here ... or even the Navy Cross or a Distinguished Service Medal. It's the Purple Heart. It's given to wounded personnel. Period. The REAL recipients are the ones who were wounded. Period. If you think there should be different medals for different levels of wounds that's one thing. But let's not bash a veteran who served in combat, and was awarded his medals based on military regulations, because you disagree with him politically.

What about all those other Purple Heart recipients who have received their medals over the years for less than life-threatening injuries? Are you questioning the validity of their awards, too? Isn't it enough that they went to war for us, sacrificing their personal lives, risking their physical lives, crawling through the muck in fear and anger, sustaining injuries and watching people die? Is it so horrible that they get a little purple medal in recognition of their efforts?

Jeebus, just let the military reward these guys in whatever way they see fit. If they want to give a guy a medal for a piece of shrapnel that grazes his cheek instead of landing in his jugular, let them. Our soldiers deserve any and all recognition we can give them.

[Allison]

Oh, and Kerry has released his service records.

[Canidae]

What about all those other Purple Heart recipients who have received their medals over the years for less than life-threatening injuries?And what about those that never have and probably never will?

My dad hardly if every spoke about the war. I do know, from talking to family members that he would have qualified for some medals, but never got them.

Wanna know why? Because while the government was awarding people like Kerry for small scrapes, there were men like my father that was off in areas that the government doesn't want to lay claim to or admit to.

My dad one time saw a man at the gym we went to that had about 5-6 bullet scars. When they both ended up upstairs, my dad bought this guy a coffee and they started talking.

See, my dad and his unit were stationed at a place that no-one even believes exsisted anymore. While he was on the ground protecting this spot, this guy he meet at the gym was up in helicopters protecting the ground forces, including my dad.

This guy suffered many wounds. Life threatening ones. And guess what, NO MEDALS.

So, when Kerry goes around saying he was awarded this and that for bravery and such in Vietnam and it turns up that he got a little boo-boo, don't be surprised when real hero's turn up and say he is full of shit.

[Swifty_Johnson]

Pettiness is useless, and those that propagate it are just as useless it undermines current, important issues, it undermines what America should be about, it undermines what our soldiers have and are still dying for.

You mean like all the questions about weither Bush served or not?

The Democrats bought this down on themselfs. If they didn't raise all the questions about Bush's military record, than they wouldn't be facing this themselfs.

What about all those other Purple Heart recipients who have received their medals over the years for less than life-threatening injuries? Are you questioning the validity of their awards, too? Isn't it enough that they went to war for us, sacrificing their personal lives, risking their physical lives, crawling through the muck in fear and anger, sustaining injuries and watching people die? Is it so horrible that they get a little purple medal in recognition of their efforts?

In Vietnam 3 purple hearts was a ticket home. What-If Kerry wasn't under fire when he got hurt and lied to get one so he was closer to getting a ticket home? What about all those who got purple heart honestly, threw enemy action, and here is a guy getting one just so he can go home.

Again, we won't know the details, but if his commanding officer is the one rasing the questions, than there maybe something behind it. After all, you said the CO has to have been the one to approve it, what if he didn't? Again, we won't know until the records are released.

Oh, and Kerry has released his service records.

He said he was, but when a reported went to see them he was turned down.

Swifty

[Allison]

It sounds like your Dad served his country well. It would be nice if he and others like him could get the recognition they deserve. And, I can understand these veterans feeling left out when so many other soldiers were given medals for lessor injuries and contributions.

But, again, their beef is with the military, not fellow veterans.

I just find it amazing that some people (not you CAnidae) can be so nit-picking about a person's military service: He may have served, but it was stateside; Yeah, he was in Vietnam, but he was just a cook; He saw some action, but it was really light; He saw heavy fighting, but he wasn't injured; He was injured, but it was minor ....

I mean come on. There is always someone who saw heavier fighting, or sustained more serious injuries. What does it take for someone's military service is beyond reproach in the political arena? Do they have to die? Can't we just say "Thank you, whatever your contribution. Thank you."

[Allison]

You mean like all the questions about weither Bush served or not?
The Democrats bought this down on themselfs.
I see. It's the old "He started it" argument. Good and right behavior is determined by what the other guy does first.


He said he was, but when a reported went to see them he was turned down.

You mean these records? http://www.johnkerry.com/about/military_records.html

[Canidae]

Allison, the only problem I have is when people like Kerry or his party try and shove his medals down our throat.

They persist in saying it over and over and over and over and over and over....

List his medals and awards. Put them on his website, but don't keep trying to show that Kerry was so much better cause he got a Purple Heart for a scratch while Bush was only state-side. That's my problem.

You don't see men like my dad's friend going around telling everyone that will listen what awards he did or didn't get. He will tell you when asked, but thats it.

Its called Humility, and if Kerry had that, I would respect him alot more.

[Allison]

I see your point, Canidae. And I'd agree that humility is a nice quality. :)

But, of course, I have to disagree with something ;) ...

I haven't heard Kerry talk about his medals. And the people that I have heard talk about them, are doing so in reponse to attacks about how he got them. I could be wrong about that. Maybe Kerry and his supporters were "bragging" about them long before anyone ever started to question the circumstances surrounding how he got them. But I never heard it.

[]LoL[Harm]

You mean like all the questions about weither Bush served or not?Exactly, I don't give two shits what Bush did in the National Guard. Unless he commited treason or broke some laws it doesn't really matter. And if the Media didn't give two shits than most American's wouldn't either. What matters is where the country is going, one reason I would vote for Kucinich in a heart beat JUST because he tried to talk about issues and not about "endorsements" and "campaign finances" and other petty non-issues.

Its called Humility, and if Kerry had that, I would respect him alot more.Humility and the names of any politician I've seen on TV to this date do not compute. If you believe Bush is humble I would like to see proof because his camp is doing the same as Kerry's. Stating all major military operations to be over and his constant "bring it on" approach to resistance is not being humble. The first is prideful, the second arrogant. I however do not disagree with your assessment of Kerry's camp.

[Swifty_Johnson]

I see. It's the old "He started it" argument. Good and right behavior is determined by what the other guy does first.

Except Kerry launched an unwarrented assult vs several Repulicans who didn't go to Vietnam, so yes he's bought this down on himself. If you are going to attack other people, you better make shure your own house is clean. Al Gore never mentioned his service in Vietnam much as he was kept from the front and had personal bodyguards. He knew better than to bring it up.

You mean these records? http://www.johnkerry.com/about/military_records.html

There are more records than those that people want to see.

Swifty

[Allison]

There are more records than those that people want to see.

SwiftyDon't worry, I hear his dental records are forthcoming. :rolly: (Sorry, couldn't resist.)
OH, and I think you're behind the times. Kerry started posting up records on his website last night, and provided information directly to AP. For the third time, he's released his records.

[Hammer]

It was the democrats that made vietnam an issue and continue to do so by comparing it to Iraq. I honestly don't care if Kerry got a scratch and used it to get a free ride home. I hate to admit it but I would probably have been looking to get the hell out of there too, by hook or crook.

[Grundy]

With respect to ill gotten medals:
- Kerry is not a REAL hero because he didnt serve in the military. The footage you see of him fighting a war are the outakes from his role in Hair the Musical. He was only acting.
- Kerry The Fool made the medals himself as he is an avid Stamper hobbyist. Its amazing what you can do with a Dremel and a little toe polish.

With respect to records:
- I won't be satisfied until I see his Kerry's papschmear. He is actually a transgender manican chiseled from granite. Kinda like Hellboy on an Estrogen binge.

- Not to be outdone Bush is gonna do a live Colonoscopy to remove a large mass blocking his rectum. Heraldo is gonna do the play-by-play because the mass is allegedly Al Capone.

[Popo]

"It's not like Kerry awarded the thing to himself."

Actually, that's what I heard.



heard from who?? use sources please.

[Allison]

Lol @ Grundy. :rolly:

[Boom]

Humility? Like the humility GWB showed when he goes on and on and on and on and on and on and on about being a big brave fighter pilot? Or when he wastes tons of my tax money showboating by getting a jetride onto an aircraft carrier? Yeah, when I saw him standing there in his fighter pilot costume under that huge MISSION ACCOMPLISHED banner the first thing that came to my mind was, "Wow! That guy is the epitome of humility!"

Ever read GWB's autobiography? He sure doesn't show much humility about being a big brave fighter pilot, but he totally forgot to mention that he was a cheerleader in college, while Kerry was getting shot at. I guess he didn't want to brag about the cheerleading thing because of his humility. He also didn't mention his bravery in the operation of a motor vehicle while drunk as a skunk. Again, gotta admire the humility.

Don't blame Kerry for shoving his medals down your throats. Blame his overzealous supporters. Yeah, its cheesy of them, but how many times have you heard Kerry personally talk about his medals? I guarantee its not nearly as many times as you have heard GWB say "I was a fighter pilot!"

My Grandfather fought in WW2. He had no purple hearts. He was lucky enough to not get injured. But the stories he told me sent chills to the core of my bones. He was in a fucking war. It's scary as hell. He is a hero, like anyone who goes to war.

Kerry has 3 purple hearts. I don't care if he bumped his funnybone in the mess tent. He was still IN VIETNAM FIGHTING! Meanwhile our Coward In Chief was bumped to the top of the list for national guard to get out of going to Vietnam because his Daddy was a big important man. He then proceeded to take his first two annual physicals, but after drug testing was announced he failed to show up for the third one. Snoooooort Snoooort!!! Hey GWB, to take the oath of office you have to swear that you haven't used drugs in 20 years. Can you do that? "Hmm, let me think... carry the 5... divide by the hypotenous.. how long is 20 years... oh yes! I can say that, I haven't used drugs in 20 years." Well thats nice, how would you have answered that question in 1990? "Umm, er, well, ahh, I don't think I should answer questions of a personal nature like that." Riiiiiiiight, wink wink, we got yah.

Ok, so Kerry's own commander says his first purple heart was a boo-boo scratch. GWB's own commander says he was AWOL!!!! How is that comparable?

The military gives purple heart medals for boo-boos. This is Kerry's fault? Should he have turned down the medal? Would you?

[Popo]

LOL @ Grundeeeee

Boom: Stop speaking sense, it isn't taken lightly around here ;)

[Rooster]

"Should he have turned down the medal? Would you?"

yes.

[Canidae]

"Should he have turned down the medal? Would you?"

Yes. You try and make it sound as if Kerry was so Honorable, yet he didn't have enough Honor to turn down a medal that he really didn't deserve.

And not once in my post did I mention Bush being more humble (or at all) than Kerry so get off my ass.

[Allison]

And not once in my post did I mention Bush being more humble (or at all) than Kerry so get off my ass.
She got you there, Boom. I gotta call "random candidate bashing" on you. :)


But, the question wasn't "Would you turn down a medal you didn't deserve?" Would you turn down a medal you did deserve? And who is to decide what's deserved and what's not? And that's the problem here. Kerry's critics will say that he didn't deserve that medal. But unless he just lied about how he received his injuries (and there's no evidence of that), the Navy's own regulations say he did deserve it, and they have the final word.

I gotta call BS on anyone saying they'd refuse a medal for injuries sustained in battle. I'm sure there are some people out there who would, under some circumstances, but I don't think any of us can say with any certainty that we would have done so if we were in Kerry's shoes.

[Kegg OBeer]

Just for the record... the records that are posted only say that he actually received the medals in question, not what his injuries were... So basically they records he posted don't mean squat since the issue isn't if he received them, it's 'WHY' he received them.

Also, on the records that are posted, I noticed quite a few instances of blacking out parts of the record. Now if he's trying to be all forthcoming and honest, why does he need to black out certain parts? What could he possibly be hiding in records like that?


Last but not least, remember that he was in the Navy. Let's not compare him to people that were actually in the jungle fighting. That would be disrespectful to the men that fought and died there.

[Kegg OBeer]

Also, I'd like to add that exaggerating an injury to receive a medal is just as bad, if not worse, than lying about receiving an injury at all...

[Eiru]

On your last paragraph... I would REALLY love to see what Kerry says he will do. So far it's mostly been "I would do it better than Bush..." (but don't ask what, cause he has no clue). His whole platform appears to be Bush battering and no content.

Mmmmmmmm .... battered bush ....

[Rooster]

Also, I'd like to add that exaggerating an injury to receive a medal is just as bad, if not worse, than lying about receiving an injury at all...That's my point.

[Swifty_Johnson]

Just for the record... the records that are posted only say that he actually received the medals in question, not what his injuries were...

Kerry's 2nd purple heart was earned with his bronze star. A mine blew up near his boat and he took shrapnal in an arm. He than, while wounded and under fire, pulled a man who fell off the boat back into the boat. Yes, I say well deserved.

Meanwhile our Coward In Chief was bumped to the top of the list for national guard to get out of going to Vietnam because his Daddy was a big important man.

Calling President Bush a coward is so off base it isn't even funny. Newsflash, National Guard units were called to duty to serve in Vietnam, so he was taking his chances just like anyone else. Also, his training in the guard wasn't as safe as say, sitting in England, smoking dope and protesting the war, and could have gotten him killed.

Also, the military takes care of his own. A guy at work is a blood realitive of Butch O'Hare, naval aviator and Congressional Medal of Honor winner. He's the guy O'Hare airport is named after. He was sent an application to the U.S. Naval Academy all filled out and accepted, all he had to do was sign it and he was in. No pandering to senators, passing all entrance exams, he was in.
That's the way it is.

Swifty

[Rooster]

I got offered a chance to attend the Air Force Academy.

Turned it down because I was doing what I wanted to do. I couldn't fly the plane (poor eyesight in one eye), so I figured I'd work on it.

[Boom]

Like 2% of national guard went to Vietnam. Everyone knows it was the way to draftdodge without going to Canada. That's why his daddy got him bumped up to the front of the list.

Today's national guard goes and fights.

Where is there any evidence or even suggestion that Kerry exaggerated his injury? Yall are speculating. All we have heard is that his commander says his injury wasn't a big deal.

He was in Vietnam, he was injured, he gets a purple heart. Those are the rules. Yall are making up your own standards of what is a big enough injury to "deserve" a purple heart.

Sorry Can, I didn't mean to get on your ass. You know I have a great deal of respect for you. Its just that you've made it very clear that you have a lot of respect for GWB. So when you said your respect for Kerry is diminished by his lack of humility (even though its mostly his supporters and not him who are waving around his medals) I have to wonder why GWB's lack of humility doesn't bother you.

[Rooster]

Because his heart is in the right place. And he TRIES to do the right thing.

That's my take on it anyway.

[Allison]

Just for the record... the records that are posted only say that he actually received the medals in question, not what his injuries were...
Sorry, but that's not correct. Everything they've gotten from the Navy has been released, with the exception of Kerry's complete medical record, much of which is still being retrieved. The after-action spot reports relating to his Silver Star, his Bronze Star, and two of his three Purple Hearts are on his website. (The Kerry campaign has said that they haven't received the after-action report relating to his first Purple Heart, but they have provided AP with a personal journal of Kerry's detailing that incident. I'm sure the absense of that after-action report will be fuel for the rightest of the right conspiracy nuts, but, considering this stuff is 35 years old, I'm not surprised that a few things are missing.)

Also, on the records that are posted, I noticed quite a few instances of blacking out parts of the record. Now if he's trying to be all forthcoming and honest, why does he need to black out certain parts? What could he possibly be hiding in records like that?
Obviously he's a communist. Lol, seriously, Kegg ... his Social Security and Service Numbers are blacked out. No big secrets there.

Also, I'd like to add that exaggerating an injury to receive a medal is just as bad, if not worse, than lying about receiving an injury at all...
No one of reason has claimed either of Kerry.

---

You know, I wouldn't be surprised if Kerry's delay in releasing his records wasn't just a political tactic. Get his critics all fired up with speculations about his service history, and then release the records ... records full of commendations, recommendations for promotions, tales of bravery, and positive evaluations. It's a giant stfu that leaves the harshest critics of his service grasping at straws trying to save face.

I'm sure there will still be a few who will hound him until all of the medical records are gathered and released, and a few more who will hang forever on that one missing after-action report. But for the most part, after having read through a lot of those reports, I'm betting this issue is all but dead.

[Allison]

Because his heart is in the right place. And he TRIES to do the right thing.

That's my take on it anyway.I would agree with that assessment of President Bush.

[Ivyrielle]

Like 2% of national guard went to Vietnam. Everyone knows it was the way to draftdodge without going to Canada. That's why his daddy got him bumped up to the front of the list.

Today's national guard goes and fights.

I honestly don't have numbers on the % of National Guard that went to Vietnam, but I do know that my fathers unit was activated and deployed in the jungles of Vietnam. My grandparents had their only sons serving in Vietnam at the same time. I can't imagine how they felt knowing that they could lose both their sons, but I know they were proud of them.

My father, like Canidae's, does not speak much about his time there, though I listen when he does. I know that in his 3 tours of duty he received 2 Purple Hearts and a Silver Star. Considering those 3 tours were less than a year, and his last 3 months, he was part of a military entertainment unit that visited those areas that the U.S.O. Tours were unable to reach... I wouldn't exactly qualify service in the National Guard during Vietnam as any sort of draft dodge or guarantee that you'll not be activated. I know it certainly wasn't for my father, or his friends who died there.

Like any other large operation, the military also needs people performing many different functions. Whether or not you are on the front lines of fighting, your job is still critical to the function of the whole. Allison had a very good point regarding this earlier. It is too easy to justify to ourselves what is and is not valid service or heroism. I know that for myself, I'm not there, so I am certainly not in a position to judge, just be grateful that there are those Men willing to protect us.

veering slightly off topic
What does irritate me... people like the 18 year old schmuck recently who joined the army for college money, then had anti-war protesters smuggle him to Canada and applied for asylum, claiming he didn't join the army to fight when he was to go to Iraq with his unit..

[Canidae]

Kerry's 2nd purple heart was earned with his bronze star. A mine blew up near his boat and he took shrapnal in an arm. He than, while wounded and under fire, pulled a man who fell off the boat back into the boat. Yes, I say well deserved.He earned the Bronze star for saving the other man. The Purple Heart was for his injury. I read it on Fox News. The three injuries he sustained where all from shrapnel at different times. All three of them were treated and he was released same day for active duty. One of them was in his arse. *snickers*

Boom, I respect GWB more cause he at least appears to be trying like Roo said. Also, I would vote for someone else if they had a plan that sounded as if it would work. Like, not raising taxes, not pulling out of Iraq too early, not using more of our tax money for Social Security and welfare. So far, frankly, I am not impressed at all with what I have heard from Kerry and I am not impressed by what Bush has done with finances, but as of right now, I see Bush as the beter choice due to other policies.

[Canidae]

What does irritate me... people like the 18 year old schmuck recently who joined the army for college money, then had anti-war protesters smuggle him to Canada and applied for asylum, claiming he didn't join the army to fight when he was to go to Iraq with his unit..
GAH... what a....... *%$#&%(@!&%#@@&!($%&@

The military is not a freaking free ride to college and if he doesn't like that then the idiot shouldn't have joined. I mean really, did he not notice the freaking war going on or was he just that stupid to believe that he could use the military for his own needs without actualy serving in it?

[Rooster]

POS should be shot & hung... that's desertion, punishable by death.

That or 20 years in Levenworth.

[Boom]

I found the following at the National Archives website.

CACCF Record Counts by Service Component (as of 12/98)
Service Component Number of Records
Military Reserves 5,760
National Guard 97
Regular Military 34,475
Selective Service 17,672
Unknown, Not Reported 189
Total 58,193

And I found the following at CNN website.

In his autobiography, former joint chiefs chairman, Colin Powell, complained "I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and well placed and so many professional athletes managed to wrangle slots in the Reserve and National Guard units."

(on camera): For most of the Vietnam War, President Johnson avoided calling up the National Guard, fearful it would only further divide the country over an increasingly unpopular war. But after the 1968 Tet Offensive he relented.

And as this exhibit at the National Guard memorial museum in Washington shows, some 9,000 guard troops served in Vietnam between '68 and '69. One hundred of them died there.

(voice-over): But by 1970, with the war winding down, service in the Guard was a virtual get-out-of-Nam free card. That's a far cry from today.


Yes, for 2 years of the war National Guard troops were sent, and they are every bit as much heros as any other soldier who served. And I'm sure that not every person who signed up for National Guard was trying to get out of fighting. But for many people, expecially the privileged ones as Colin Powel notes, National Guard was the best way to dodge.

[Kegg OBeer]

Ailia, I was going by the link you had provided earlier in this thread. Nowhere on there does it list how he received the medals...

Also, blocking out his SS# would be fine, but his service number is ridiculous. There's nothing anyone can do with that other than look up his actual records. The military didn't use SS#'s in Vietnam era, so they wouldn't be on his records.


One thing I want to point out is that if you haven't actually served in the military, I doubt you would understand why this is a big issue to veterans. There is a code of honor that all veterans expect each other to stick to, and in my opinion and pretty much any other veteran's opinion, exaggerating to receive a combat award is a dispicable act.

People who have served in the military have a very different outlook on such things.

[Allison]

Ailia, I was going by the link you had provided earlier in this thread. Nowhere on there does it list how he received the medals...
Yes it does. Again, look in the after-action spot reports.


Also, blocking out his SS# would be fine, but his service number is ridiculous. There's nothing anyone can do with that other than look up his actual records. The military didn't use SS#'s in Vietnam era, so they wouldn't be on his records.
If they didn't use SS numbers, then I must be seeing things. :p Why do you care if his service number is blacked out? What's ridiculous is claiming he has something to hide because these two numbers are blacked out.

There is a code of honor that all veterans expect each other to stick to, and in my opinion and pretty much any other veteran's opinion, exaggerating to receive a combat award is a dispicable act.
And what do veterans think about besmirching the reputation of a veteran for political gain?

Purple Hearts are awarded to individuals injured in combat.
The fact that Kerry was injured is not in dispute.
No one has claimed that he ever exaggerated his injuries.

There are only two possible criticisms one could make about that one Purple Heart in question:

1. The injury wasn't the result of combat. There is absolutely no evidence of this and no known reason to even bring up this claim.

2. It was a minor injury and didn't deserve a Purple Heart. If this is your claim, and you say that all veterans everywhere share this view, that's fine. I suggest you all lobby the various branches of the military to change their regulations on how Puple Hearts are awarded. Again, Purple Hearts are awarded for minor injuries. Kerry never claimed it wasn't a minor injury. If there is some unwritten military code of conduct that says soldiers shouldn't accept medals for minor injuries, then by all means, you all have every right to a beef with Kerry. But for the rest of us who can only go by stated military policies, Kerry has no blame here.

[Rooster]

2. Etiquette is not always law. If you haven't been there, you may not understand.

[Allison]

That's why I said:If there is some unwritten military code of conduct that says soldiers shouldn't accept medals for minor injuries, then by all means, [veterans] have every right to a beef with Kerry. But for the rest of us who can only go by stated military policies, Kerry has no blame here.

But I'm not sure of your point. Is it that no one other than military personnel can have a valid opinion on this topic?

[Rooster]

Don't pretend that the people that ARE upset with him have no right to be.

It's kinda like portal camping or team killing (UT).

Or a group that follows you around stealing your mobs or wiping out the guild bank (DAoC).

Neither are against the rules... but alas, that's all us peons have to go on, so it must be okay.

[Swifty_Johnson]

And what do veterans think about besmirching the reputation of a veteran for political gain?

You mean like Kerry did in his anti-war protests after the war?

Kerry bought this down on himself for launching into a pre-emptive stike vs several Republicans.

Swifty

[Kegg OBeer]

I think the point is more that we don't appreciate his besmirching our reputation. By his claims he is some great war hero. By the standard of veterans, the only heroes are the ones who died in service of their country.

While some republicans may have implied it, Neither of the Bush's have claimed to be heroes, just veterans in one capacity or another. The first speech I ever saw Kerry make, he talked about his military record and used the word hero. He instantly lost all my respect.

No, I can't tell you what speech it was or provide a link to it. I was just flipping through the channels and caught it on some news channel.

[Rooster]

If you call yourself a hero, you're not.

[Allison]

If anyone can show me a quote or a link or anything where Kerry has ever called himself a "hero," I'll eat my hat.

[]LoL[Harm]

Lol!

[Swifty_Johnson]

What was really sicking was to see DNC's president Terry McWaffler on Foxnews this morning complaining about "republican" attacks on Kerry's war service. (I have yet to see any direct Ruplican attacks on Kerry's war service, only media ones.) He said we should leave veterns alone, they served their country.

This was the same man that charges the Bush went AOL, and attacked the president over his national guard service.

This disgustion piece of trash is what the democrats pick to lead them?

Swifty

[Rooster]

Well, not officially yet Swifty...

and Allison, don't put words in MY mouth.. I never said he did. Mine was a blanket statement.

[Allison]

and Allison, don't put words in MY mouth.. I never said he did. Mine was a blanket statement.
I never said you said he did. :D

Oh .. and ... I know you are but what am I? :p :rolly:

[Boom]

Someone please show me where Kerry exaggerated his injuries.

If you can't, then please stop saying it.

[Rooster]

We will, when you stop saying Bush went AWOL. You're not AWOL unless you're actually brought up on charges.

[Allison]

We will, when you stop saying Bush went AWOL.
Hehe. You'd be a great political strategist, Roo. :)

[Rooster]

What I think is laughable is all these non-military people making a big deal about an AWOL charge. AWOL is no laughing matter, and certainly would have been brought up on charges had it had any truth to the matter. Yall in the military don't have the slightest clue how serious AWOL is, but yet you all preach about it like he got away with something. (On a previous post of mine: You have to be either VERY good, or VERY bad to be memorable that long ago - or have made VERY good friends. And in the Guard in that era, I highly doubt people were around long enough to make friendships like that. Hell, I barely remember my good friends in the USAF, and I was on a base for 3 years).

Here's a little personal story... My dad was in the Navy... he was 3rd seat Electrician on C-130's attached to the Air Force. He was sent to an Air Force tech school that no longer existed. He showed up, where there was only a guard post with 2 SP's. The SP's signed their papers (he and a friend) that they showed up. Then enjoyed their stay along the East Coast for a week or two. Was that AWOL? No. Would anyone remember him being there? No. Wierd things happen in the military.

Don't try to demonize Bush because he wasn't an Eisenhower. He's never claimed to be.

[Allison]

What I think is laughable is all these non-military people making a big deal about an AWOL charge.
Oh come on, Rooster. You said it yourself. You'll stop saying Kerry exaggerated his wounds when other people stop saying Bush went AWOL. Tit-for-tat. Criticisms from both sides are being made for political reasons. I don't know how you can find one laughable without finding the other equally laughable.

[Rooster]

Here's the rub:

Kerry started this, on both sides. He points to his record and falsely accuses Bush of going AWOL.

Then word comes out that Bush has disproven it, yet Kerry still preaches on, KNOWING it's a lie.

Then more word comes out that his medals were dubious. AND that his actions after he returned from the Vietnam War were lies. AND that he lied about throwing his medals/ribbons at the White House.

Kerry has nothing to stand on, yet keeps going like the Energizer Bunny.

Bush did not attack anyone, Kerry & his Lefty's did.

That's why Kerry is a complete Joke (with a capital J).

[Allison]

Kerry didn't start the Bush-AWOL thing. It's been going on for 4 years. Even if we were to agree that Kerry did start it all, the "But he started it!" argument is for children, not adults.

The problem is, you think everything from the left is lies, and everthing from the right is good and justified. ALL these accusations, from BOTH sides, are political BS maneuvering tactics. You see it as such from the left. But you refuse to see it from the right.

[Rooster]

No, not everything. Of course not. There's quite a bit of stuff coming out of the Republican legislature I find apalling.

But as for tactics and rhetoric, I find the Left is "usually" left with no ground to stand on once their claims are shown as lies, yet they keep on going on about it.

The Right typically does a little better job with their homework. If the Right lies about stuff, and it's contradicted with fact, they'll usually go on to something else.

[Boom]

Your dad is a total different story. He tried to do his duty but there was a snafu. And at least he was signed in. Bush didn't even do that for his entire stay in Alabama.

I was using the literal definition of AWOL, Absent With Out Leave. Which he was. Just because he was never charged doesn't mean he wasn't AWOL. Saying you aren't AWOL unless you are brought up on charges is like people who say OJ isn't guilty of murder. He wasn't convicted in criminal court, but he is still guilty because he killed Nicole. You are AWOL once you go AWOL. You are a murderer once you kill someone. You are a drunk driver once you get behind the wheel above the legal limit. You are a criminal when you commit the crime, not when you are charged with committing the crime. You may not be a convict, but you are still a criminal.

You may not remember everyone from your unit, but you didn't have GWB in your unit. He wasn't your average soldier. He was like a minor celebrity. He would have been remembered. When he was sworn in they did a special ceremony in front of the press for him. He had a military jet fly him to go on a date once. His dad was a senator. People remember GWB from everywhere he ever was. Anyone who was with him in college remembers him. Anyone who was with him when he served in Texas remembers him, because people would say "Psst, see that guy over there? That's George Jr." For every year of his life you can come up with people who remember him being there, except for his time in Alabama. And there is a simple explanation, he didn't show up for duty.

I've shown where Bush was AWOL. He cannot account for where he was when he was supposed to be on duty in Alabama. Its been documented to death. I think that gives me the right to say he was AWOL, or if you want to haggle over terminology it gives me the right to say he was absent without leave (no capital letters, not using technical Military definition). Noone has shown a shred of evidence that Kerry ever exaggerated an injury.

Comparing your claim that Kerry exaggerated his injury to my claim that GWB was absent without leave is ludicrous. There have been numerous best sellers written about GWB's dubious military record. Its been documented over and over and over. His own CO says so. His girlfriend from the time says so. There is not a single quote that any of you can point to regarding Kerry exaggerating his injuries. You are making it up out of thin air.

Btw, I notice none of you are challenging the other allegations I made, then supported. Although how can you challenge the fact that he was bumped to the top of the list in light of the facts. Or the fact that he failed to show up for the drug test, when.. well.. he didn't show up for the drug test.

Roo, do you still think that he would rush to the front lines now that you know he checked the box saying he didn't want to volunteer to go to the front lines should the Guard be called?

[Boom]

Bush did not attack anyone?!?!?!!

Do you know how much money he has spent this month alone attacking Kerry?

[Figtoria]

You guys better be careful not to think or say anything bad about Bush:


http://www.thedenverchannel.com/education/3224268/detail.html

[Figtoria]

The problem is, you think everything from the left is lies, and everthing from the right is good and justified. ALL these accusations, from BOTH sides, are political BS maneuvering tactics. You see it as such from the left. But you refuse to see it from the right.


What Ailia said ^^^^.

In spades. Which is why I'm not commenting much anymore. There is no logic in his arguments.

[Eiru]

You guys better be careful not to think or say anything bad about Bush:


http://www.thedenverchannel.com/education/3224268/detail.html

Come, come, now, Fig. Bush is nowhere NEAR smart enough to be Satan.

[Rooster]

What Ailia said ^^^^.

In spades. Which is why I'm not commenting much anymore. There is no logic in his arguments.Which is of course, the cowards (or lack of reasoning) way out. I'm still here and have yet to see anything to disprove what I say, whereas I can't say the same for your arguments.

[ArdryMcArdry]

Which is of course, the cowards (or lack of reasoning) way out. I'm still here and have yet to see anything to disprove what I say, whereas I can't say the same for your arguments.

Isn't that the point of blind devotion?

[spyder913]

Roo when you say stuff like this:
But as for tactics and rhetoric, I find the Left is "usually" left with no ground to stand on once their claims are shown as lies, yet they keep on going on about it.

The Right typically does a little better job with their homework. If the Right lies about stuff, and it's contradicted with fact, they'll usually go on to something else.
it's hard to argue with it because it's just an opinion.

Does allison agree with it? I doubt it. But she can't say "you're wrong" because you are right in that that's what you believe =)

I think it's bullshit, but maybe that's because I don't hold that much faith in just 'Left and Right' (See political compass thread)

[Figtoria]

Which is of course, the cowards (or lack of reasoning) way out. I'm still here and have yet to see anything to disprove what I say, whereas I can't say the same for your arguments.


Thank-you for illustrating my point.

Calling me a "coward" and then equating that with a "lack of reasoning" is an example of both the ad hominem arguments you're famous for AND the illogic of questioning my bravery simply because I withdraw from an exercise in futility.

It is impossible to "disprove" your points Rooster, because they are based on your opinions. When facts are called up to illustrate why others might have different opinions - these facts are discounted by you because they "come from the Left and the Left doesn't "do its homework" as well as the Right."

And round and round we go.

[Canidae]

I hate to cause more issues here... but Fig... you do the exact same thing. When facts are given, you discount them as just opinions or left-bashing or what-not.

Fact is, none of you are getting anywhere because you each refuss to research any facts that the other side gives. You automatically assumes its "right" or "left" and discount it because it doesn't fly with your opinion.

Its useless to waste energy on this. That's why I have stopped bothering unless its an issues I feel very strongly on, then I state my opinion. Which has many times been forcefully attacked and battered, even though its my opinion. And I have more than once been throughly pissed off at the way Roo and I have been personally attacked.

Sorry guys, but I have just about had all of this crap I will take from any of you. Frankly I have started to lose any joy from coming to the LOL forums like I use to have. I have seen our parenting skills come under attack, our religious beliefs... which just so happened that someone compared Baptists to Al Queda only a day or so after my Grandmother, a life-long Baptisit died. I have seen so much whining about how the government is run that its bordering on pathetic now.

I just can't understand how you all can sit back and say that one person is being biased and close-minded, when its all of you doing it.

Allison and Fig are quick to attack Roo and say he refusses to listen to their points, but you two are doing the exact same thing to him.

Kegg obviously speaks from experience with military issues, but you guys refuss to see his points.

NL had valid points, all he got was "Your father should have done this". Yeah.. I said it too... but you can go back and notice that while I said I believed he should have become a citizen, I also tried to help with ideas to help him out and wished the family well.

You guys ask quetions on what people think, then attack them if their opinions differ.

Its sick, its wrong. This is not what friends do.

And before my shit is jumped.. I am referring to Roo too. He has a mind-set that his is right unless he is proven wrong by hard-core facts. You won't convince him by just saying "this is this and that is that."

Here.. to make you all happy... My faults are that I lead with my heart and not facts. I tend to speak before I think and only think to do the research afterwards. I also am not able, it seems, to always make my posts sound the way i want them too, and the sometimes come off harsh because I speak from my heart.

So, ya'll need to cut this crap out. Delete this freaking political thread and go back to being the funny LOL that I love so much. I am sick of the attacking, your not right I am, your left I'm right, your religious I'm not.

[Boom]

/em smoooches Canidea.

That was the most reasonable bestest post on this "political" forum ever. :)

[]LoL[Harm]

As a main proponent of these threads I'll stop posting em here. I agree that the types of responses I received to many of my threads didn't go the path I wanted them too. I was hoping for reasonable discussions with less partisan bashing and undefined opinions. I was also hoping to get a look into what others think on issues.

The passion that went behind many of the postings did give me insight to one thing, we lions are passionate people. Which in the real world means we care and try to make a difference. If all I received from the threads I started was apathy I would have been saddened. I've enjoyed the majority of the responses, even Roo's hardline approach. And in some instances I've seen many hardlines soften their views. I myself have even found myself softening my views on many things I was adamantly against.

But, Canidae is right, this isn't the place to do this. Soon I'll be hosting my own forums where most of my policitcal stuff will move too, maybe I'll be able to push some of you in that direction for more debates and hopefully less people and political affiliation bashing ;).

[Allison]

Canidae, of course, I disagree with many of your criticisms ;) , but I won't attempt to defend myself here. I'm sorry if you were offended or hurt by anything I've said. I truly am. I've tried my best to avoid that sort of thing, although I'm not altogether surprised by it because I am aware of my own struggles to keep in mind the fact that we're arguing ideals here, and not each other. But, at the end of the day, I don't take it personally, I still think of you as friends, and I assume you think the same of me.

When debating topics like this, it's difficult to keep emotions out of it. And once emotions run high, like they have the last couple of days, things can get ugly. I had hoped that, as friends, we could work through all that and find our stride for fair debate. I had hoped this because I enjoy our debates. I enjoy hearing differing opinions. It challenges me to research and reconsider my own positions. And it helps me to understand others. It's been an education. And if we stop, it will sadden me to know that we are incapable of a civil debate. But, if that's what you guys want, I will abide.

Harm, let us know about your forum. If we have to move, hopefully we can do it with a renewed sense of civility and respect, while maintaining the presense of differing opinions.

[Swifty_Johnson]

I've shown where Bush was AWOL. He cannot account for where he was when he was supposed to be on duty in Alabama. Its been documented to death. I think that gives me the right to say he was AWOL,

Bush HAS shown that he served all the time he had to serve, and that is a documented fact.

So no, you do not have a right to say he was AWOL as you are slanding his name.

Swifty

[Figtoria]

I hate to cause more issues here... but Fig... you do the exact same thing. When facts are given, you discount them as just opinions or left-bashing or what-not.


Please show me where I have done this.

Oh nevermind - I let myself get pulled back into morass again - so that was my bad.

[Rooster]

I try not to take it personal.. and when I click on a link in the Political forum, I know what I'm getting into.

I feel, as long as we keep it in here, it's all good. I'll still give good hugs to Alli and give her and Grundy a beer once they come down to our house warming party. :)

[Allison]

I dunno, Rooster. A hug between an America-hating, commie-pinko, holier-than-thou, anti-establishment, liberal nutcase and an inflexible, self-riteous, flag-waving, bible-thumping, conservative nutcase?

The universe might implode. :D

Of course there will be beer and hugs! And I'll promise not to subvert your children with our commie ideals as long as you promise not to throw eggs at us when we arrive. Hehe. :)

[Canidae]

Of course there will be beer and hugs
In that order? And just how many beers will it take to get to the hugs? Heh

[Swifty_Johnson]

The question is will Alli be able to get past the barb-wire,moat,auto-MG turrets, and minefield to make it to Roos's housewarming party?

Swifty

[Allison]

Lol, Swifty. Just when I get good and mad at you, you go and make me laugh. Stop that! If I become too fond of too many conservatives, they gonna kick me outta the club! :rolly:

Canidae, I must confess, I'm a hugger. And it only gets worse after the beer. :x

[Swifty_Johnson]

Don't get mad at me Alli! I'm just alittle edgy as my new Gf might get shipped out to Iraq for a year. :(

Swifty

[Allison]

Ack! I'm sorry to hear that, Swifty. :(

[Canidae]

No No swifty.. all I need is a big dog like a german shepard and a .45

:-)

Did I mention I am one heck of a shot? Guess it comes from having a cop as a dad. LOL

[Swifty_Johnson]

I got the call this morning, my GF ships out for an 18 month tour of duty in the Persian Gulf on Monday. :(

Swifty

[Rooster]

Well, you have friends here... that's going to be tough. Let us know if we can help.

[Allison]

We'll keep her in our prayers, Swifty, and hope for a safe and speedy return.

[Swifty_Johnson]

I'm just hopping I don't go blind before she returns. :(

Swifty