Great line!

[Eiru]

Quoted from the essay at http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/04/04/07_sermon.html:

On evolution 'vs.' creationism:

"If you're a Christian, here is everything you'll ever need to know about the creation of the universe: God did it."

One statement solves so much :bang: don't you think?

[Rooster]

Considering the guy has absolutely no clue about what he's talking about, I just wasted 5 minutes of my life.

Thanks.

I like your posts Eiru, but if you're gonna post a link, at least make sure the author has at least made an effort to be knowledgable about the subject matter.

[Elvtin]

hehehe... Roo just got pwn!@

[Sparky]

How is he wrong? point out his errors rather then claiming his entire viewpoint in invalid.

[Rooster]

He claims that Christianity as a whole states that only a select few can get into heaven.

That's Jehovah's Witness. It is not representative of Christians. He makes general sweeping WRONG assumptions about 95% of Christians in the world and applies them to everyone.

I've not seen such ignorance since slavery abounded.

Moron. (Him, not you Sparky).


And yes, his entire viewpoint is invalid because it's obvious he has no idea what he is talking about, and we have a word for him if he had written that here: TROLL. That's all he is.

[Canidae]

His article is not factual. He is classifing all "Christians" into one type of belief. That type of idiotic view would also classify all blacks as criminals or all whites as racists.

I especailly like how he slipped in his views of "The Passion of the Christ" in as well. Really now, is this a movie review as well as a blantant attack on Christianity?

If you want to know more about Christian beliefs, then take the time to go out and research it yourself. Talk to Christians of different churches. Attend the services, talk to the preacher/priest. Don't waste your time reading garbage like that.

[Swifty_Johnson]

The problem with some people is they do not realise how diverse Christians are. There are many differant sects, all with differant views on the Bible and what it means. You cannot use the views of one group and apply them to all.

Swifty

[Eiru]

Listen, I know the essay is outragious in it's claims. The author has a bone to pick with a certain sect of Christians. And his conclusion is pretty fantastical. I just thought the line was excellent. My dad is a Lutheran paster and I can totally see him saying this to his congregation.

But then my dad also likes to tell us about the first day of biology classes in Catholic boarding school. The priest walked in, put down his books and said to the class, "Ok, everyone, forget everything the nuns told you about Adam and Eve."

[]LoL[Harm]

Speaking of the Passion of Christ, check out this article (which I believe to be very well written), good viewpoint on how Pilate was seen as being "moral and just" by many critics. I for one did not like the movie, but at not time did I see Pilate as a moral and kind man. He was all the things wrong with politicians to this day.

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/de_souza200404080847.asp

[Airr]

The problem with some people is they do not realise how diverse Christians are. There are many differant sects, all with differant views on the Bible and what it means. You cannot use the views of one group and apply them to all.

Swifty
Thanks for clarifying that Swifty

[Canidae]

He was all the things wrong with politicians to this day.

More like he had all of the problems a politician could face today.

If he let Jesus go, those that were against Jesus would likely riot and cause horrible problems for the city. On the other hand, if he simply did as he was asked, those that followed Jesus would likely riot and cause problems for the city.

So naturally, as any leader would do, he tries to find a way to aviod both situations. First by trying to relinquish the authority to the province, then by severly punishing Jesus for the crimes that the church had found him guilty of.

After all that, he wanted to let Jesus go, but it was the leaders of the church that inflamed the people and demanded Jesus be killed. They were so scared of what Jesus had to say, how it would change their church, that they were willing to let a known murderer free instead.

Was Pilate wrong to go with their decision? Yes, he signed the death warrent for the son of God. Was Pilate wrong to go with the majorities decision? No, he did what he thought was best for the public safety of the city he was in charge of.

You like to say that he is all things wrong with politicians today, but what would you do in his place? A none believer, trying to do what is just, who's hand is forced by the majority. Would you do as they wished, and insure that your city was safe, or would you go against them and likely cause more blood shed than anyone, including Jesus wanted.

Jesus was willing to die on the cross. He was meant to die to cleanse humankind.

Who are you or any of us to judge Pilate for his part in it all. There are only two that can hold judgement over him, Jesus and God.


I personally liked the movie. Its about time someone stopped trying to hide what Jesus had to endure through his last hours and actually show the brutality of it.

[Eiru]

Personally, the crucifiction never really appealed to me as a focus of faith. I mean, sure he died as the sacrificial lamb for our sins but since the sacrifice was predestined, Pilote, the Saracees, the crowd, even Judas could act no other way. The salvation of the world depended on Jesus' sacrifice and that sacrifice was to occur. Beyond that, it was really the resurection that I was taught to focus on. For it was the resurection that proved Jesus' triumph over death and, by extension, reaffirmed eternal life for those who believe.

What got my attention the most was the lead up to the passion. Jesus' action at the last supper and in the garden of Gesthemane (sp?) really showed the human side of his nature. And it's the human side, the doubting and the fear and - finally - the conscious decision to follow through on his destiny, that really spoke to me. Here, in the garden, we see what humanity is in all it's messiness, as well as what it's capable of becoming: something worthy of salvation.

EDIT: I haven't seen the movie. I don't know if the garden scene is in the movie. I'm speaking from my own personal history in church, reading the bible and so forth.

[PoxTheSmall]

So is that movie good then? I haven't even really thought about seeing it, but if you guys all liked it and say it's worth watching, perhaps I should take my lazy ass out to the movies this weekend.

[]LoL[Harm]

I would never be in Pilate's position as I could never condone the amount of bloodshed and oppression that the Roman Empire embodied. It is not my right to take life.

Who are you or any of us to judge Pilate for his part in it all. There are only two that can hold judgement over him, Jesus and God.
I try not to judge people for their beliefs, however I have a difficult time not judging people by their actions. Pilate gave into a crowd that sought death, and took a life that he believed innocent. If you do not see wrong in this on the basis of "Jesus was willing to die on the cross. He was meant to die to cleanse humankind." then I find that view biased on hindsight. Pilate did not believe the man was God sent and therefore his decision was, in my view, immoral, unjust and wrong. I cannot tell you what actions I would have taken in Pilates stead because any answer would be pure speculation. I however do not have to speculate that killing an innocent is wrong.

About the movie, I found it distasteful, I could find no passion in that movie save for the passion of violence. I learned nothing that I did not already learn at the age of 3, that causing people pain is wrong. There were no new insights into Christianity, there were no teachings that would leave us better off as people. Of all the movies about a man that is said to be the son of God, his mutilation and death is the one most applauded; does this not seem strange? His teachings are what would have an impact on a society already filled with deceit and greed, not blood and gore. And his teachings were like a 30 second cameo from an unkown actor in this movie. I'm sorry, I find this film offensive not only due to what I said above but also because this movie is being used to create profit, profit that is not being given to those who are still being tortured today, like the people of Uganda http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/2982818.stm. In fact where IS this money going. I'm sure Jesus is very happy that so few are benefitting monitarily from a recreation of his death. The profit should be donated to the relief of suffering and pain and hopefully for portraying more of Jesus' teachings (which I agree with) not his mutilation.

[Cooflakes]

It was ok, really gorey and drawn out for my tastes. ALthough the end really suprised me >< I thought he would get away! Silly movie makers these days

[PoxTheSmall]

You have to understand though, the Pilate was a peace officer of a time 2000 years in the past. This was before constitutional law, witch burnings and other types of things. Killing 1 person to keep the peace would never even be an afterthought in a person like that's eyes. I think by judging him according to today's notions of justice is a little harsh, being that in today's day and age we hold folks to a much higher standard.

[PoxTheSmall]

Rofl, Coo...Jesus secretly escapes using a body double to cover for him on the cross...that'd be hillarious and very Hollywood. (I hope nobody takes offense to that)

[Cooflakes]

I seriously could see some kinda "the passion meets the Matrix" type thing coming out :) cant u just see Jesus suspended there in mid air about to lay the smack down on some romans? o_O I'd pay to see it. . . .



~~~This is not in any way a means to talk bad about Christianity oro Jesus, just harmless joking, please no one get offended o_O

[]LoL[Harm]

I agree, back then life was much less valued by the people in those lands. However religions that held the sanctity of life as the foundation of their beliefs had already formed 500 years before Jesus was born, so it may seem a new concept that killing is wrong but it really isn't.

What I was bringing up in relation to the article I posted was that now, in this day and age, how critics stated that Gibson was showing Pilate in a favorable light; however when you actually look at his actions they are not favorable at all.

[]LoL[Harm]

You like to say that he is all things wrong with politicians today, but what would you do in his place?For pure speculation:

I would delay by stepping down as the Protectorate (or whatever title Pilate held) of that city/region. And adivise the crowd that I could not take the life of an innocent man just because people demand me to based on their beliefs and that they would have to wait until the new Protectorate was announced/arrived. I would keep Jesus locked up and away from the crowd. I would also begin using the money that I earned (and I assume I earned a good deal and lived in comfort) to start undermining the support that the leader of the Sanhedrin currently had through bribes or other means of persuasion. I would use any type of resistence I had at my disposal to go against their murderous agenda. I would, as I am to this day, be willing to give up my life for my beliefs.

[Eiru]

Ya guys gotta understand one thing: the movie was made by Mel Gibson and thus is a reflection of Mel's Christianity. Different sects of Christianity choose to emphasis different things. Mel's a Catholic and Catholics tend to focus on the passion. The denomination I grew up in focused on the resurrection and salvation through grace. If a Lutheran had made the same movie, it would be a very different movie.

EDIT: Just as a for example, even though he's Catholic, Scorsese's "The Last Temptation of Christ" was based on a book written by a man steeped in the Eastern Orthodox tradition. Now granted the book was taking certain liberties with the story of Jesus; nonetheless, the plot is the same in it's general qualities and the focus of the movie is VERY different. And that comes from the fact that Easter Orthodoxy tends to emphasis the sublime and divine aspects of the Christ over the actual passion.

[Canidae]

About the movie, I found it distasteful, I could find no passion in that movie save for the passion of violence. I learned nothing that I did not already learn at the age of 3, that causing people pain is wrong. There were no new insights into Christianity, there were no teachings that would leave us better off as people. Of all the movies about a man that is said to be the son of God, his mutilation and death is the one most applauded; does this not seem strange? His teachings are what would have an impact on a society already filled with deceit and greed, not blood and gore. And his teachings were like a 30 second cameo from an unkown actor in this movie.
What is being stressed in the movie is the burden and pain in which Jesus had to suffer to free mankind from their sins. No one else has had the guts to show the brutality of the Romans. People want to hide from the truth and not see the ugly of what happened. Sorry if you were offened by the violence but back then it was a fact of life.

I'm sorry, I find this film offensive not only due to what I said above but also because this movie is being used to create profit, profit that is not being given to those who are still being tortured today, like the people of Uganda http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/2982818.stm. In fact where IS this money going. I'm sure Jesus is very happy that so few are benefitting monitarily from a recreation of his death. The profit should be donated to the relief of suffering and pain and hopefully for portraying more of Jesus' teachings (which I agree with) not his mutilation.
Frankly its none of anyones business what is done with the money that is earned by this movie. Should all movies that deal with specific subjects donate their money to that subject? Sure, it would be nice if they did, and everyone would appluad them for it, but its not our right to tell them how to use it.

For pure speculation:

I would delay by stepping down as the Protectorate (or whatever title Pilate held) of that city/region. And adivise the crowd that I could not take the life of an innocent man just because people demand me to based on their beliefs and that they would have to wait until the new Protectorate was announced/arrived. I would keep Jesus locked up and away from the crowd. I would also begin using the money that I earned (and I assume I earned a good deal and lived in comfort) to start undermining the support that the leader of the Sanhedrin currently had through bribes or other means of persuasion. I would use any type of resistence I had at my disposal to go against their murderous agenda. I would, as I am to this day, be willing to give up my life for my beliefs.
SO, let me get this straight. You would defy the Roman Emporer. You would possibly put into power, in your place, someone who wouldn't give a damn about your city. You would be willing to endanger your family and yourself to stand up for one man that you don't believe in and don't even know. You would be willing to sacrifice your life for this perfect stranger, and lets not forget, more than likely be brutially tortured and crucified (possible even causing your family to go through the same), for one stranger.

I commend you if you would really do this, but, I think you are seriously jaded because you are thinking in a now mentality and not considering the way the Roman empire was handled back then.

[Eiru]

Just to interject one more time, the story is the story. Secular speculation about Pilote's motives doesn't change the fact that he played a role in a grand scheme of redemption orchestrated ultimately by God. Pilote had no choice in doing what he did.

[Figtoria]

In fact - think of what would have happened if Pilate had refused to crucify Christ?

No death, no martyr - no Christianity.

In fact - Christians should be worshipping Pilate for killing Christ.

The whole thing is such a sham - good Jews(or NewChristians)/bad Romans. Whatever. Most people do the best they can within their own world views and values. It's beyond me how any one religion can catagorically state that theirs is the only right, true way to view the world.

How self-centered and egotistical.

[Eiru]

Haha, Figgy! That reminds me of my own family. My dad was raised in a Jewish household but converted to Christianity because he felt Judaism was answering many spiritual questions he had. Like I mentioned, he became a pastor. And for me, it's a point of pride that I was first introduced to Zen Buddhism via a couple of books from my dad's library.

How's THAT for non-self-centered?

[Rooster]

Figgy, as usual off-base.

Again, there is only a select few that state that their's is the ONLY path to heaven.

God did not dictate anything. It's been about free-will for a LONG time. Just because Jesus knew that some things were going to happen didn't mean that those involved didn't have their choices and still, knowing what was going to happen, still made those choices. Fear & greed does things to people.

The left has brainwashed so many people into thinking Christianity is evil. Yeah, it's so evil. Look at the country that was spawned from Christians seeking freedom. Yeah, we're so oppressed.

I must have missed the memo.

[]LoL[Harm]

SO, let me get this straight. You would defy the Roman Emporer. You would possibly put into power, in your place, someone who wouldn't give a damn about your city. You would be willing to endanger your family and yourself to stand up for one man that you don't believe in and don't even know. You would be willing to sacrifice your life for this perfect stranger, and lets not forget, more than likely be brutially tortured and crucified (possible even causing your family to go through the same), for one stranger.Defy the emperor, I don't know the politics behind the appointment of a Protectorate (or whatever Pilate was). But I don't thing resigning your post is defying him but I don't know. Once again this is all speculation, you can no more speculate that my actions wouldn't work then for me to speculate that they would. Hence why my initial response didn't carry any of this. It's an endless, pointless combat of assumptions.

Also, by most historians accounts, Pilate didn't give a damn about his city anymore than any other Protectorate out there. Romans often found being put in charge of a "barbaric" town or area as a form of punishment.

[]LoL[Harm]

The left has brainwashed so many people into thinking Christianity is evil. Yeah, it's so evil. Look at the country that was spawned from Christians seeking freedom. Yeah, we're so oppressed.


LOL, I can just see these undergound hideouts where Democrats pull in new candidates to the party and sit them infront of huge screens, taping their eyelids open and pumping them full of whatever the so called "right wingers" accuse them of being. I'm so glad I'm apart of neither party...they suck hairy goat balls.

[Eiru]

God did not dictate anything. It's been about free-will for a LONG time. Just because Jesus knew that some things were going to happen didn't mean that those involved didn't have their choices and still, knowing what was going to happen, still made those choices. Fear & greed does things to people.

I can't quite agree with you there, Roo. If the plan was for Jesus to be sacrificed all along, then those who were involved only had free will up to a point. As an example, if I remember correctly, Pilote basically tried everything BUT crucifiction to placate the Priests. Hence the torture. But the torture was supposed to happen anyway as part of Jesus' role as the sacrificial attonement lamb. So was the torture a political act or an act in the great sacrifice God orchestrated?

Free will does play a part in Christianity because it is a person's choice to accept Christ as saviour or not. But the passion was a set piece. Pilote ultimately had no choice but to condemn Jesus to death, in part a political decision to keep the peace in Palistine, but also because Jesus is the saviour and the saviour must be sacrificed. The crowd who called for Jesus' death are another perfect example of how free will doesn't really play a part in the passion, and from a very human point of view, too. Each person in that crowd could have chosen to step away and not call for Jesus' death, but the crowd together created a mob mentality. In that sense, no one in the crowd was acting upon their free will.

The controversy over the movie is normal. When has a movie about Jesus NOT sparked controversy? But the actually salvation of the human race was designed by God, with each role played to the "T". Jesus said it himself in the garden when he asked that this burden be taken away from him. This is a very human reaction to what was to come. But ultimately, Jesus knew the role he had to play and accepted everything because he knew his fate as the sacrificial lamb was inevitable.

That's why arguing politics about Pilote's decision is kinda like arguing about the motivations behind an drama. The drama is a set piece to run a set course. Talk all you want about what happens inside the drama. Any talk of reconstructing the drama, however, is fruitless because the writer has already set his story down.

[Rooster]

LoL[Harm']LOL, I can just see these undergound hideouts where Democrats pull in new candidates to the party and sit them infront of huge screens, taping their eyelids open and pumping them full of whatever the so called "right wingers" accuse them of being. I'm so glad I'm apart of neither party...they suck hairy goat balls.I swear there's one of those next door.

[Figtoria]

Figgy, as usual off-base.

The left has brainwashed so many people into thinking Christianity is evil. Yeah, it's so evil. Look at the country that was spawned from Christians seeking freedom. Yeah, we're so oppressed.

I must have missed the memo.


Rooster, as usual you've made incorrect ASSumptions.

I wasn't referring specifically to Christianity. Many religions adhere to the belief that only their members follow the true and righteous path.

Egotistical and self-centered.

[Kegg OBeer]

Mel's a Catholic and Catholics tend to focus on the passion.

I hate to disagree with you on this one Eiru, but I was raised Catholic (and have since given up believing in organized religion mostly because of it) and they are an organization based on two things:
Money and Power

They do NOT practice what they preach, they condone sinning as long as you confess to it, and of course it goes without saying that you are not 'asked' to donate 10% of your earnings to the church, but in most catholic churches, it's required.
I really did try to folow it when I was young, but I finally washed my hands of them when I was at a catholic wedding and they brought around the baskets for donations during the mass. (Yes, I knew the couple very well and knew for a fact that they had paid for the use of the chuch that day as well...)

I've looked into most of the other religions out there, including some of the 'alternative' ones. From everything I have seen I've come to the conclusion that none of them have it exactly right...

If you take another human being's word for what happened, or what to believe, then is it really called faith? More correctly it would be called 'beliefs'. To me there's a vast difference between the two that gets blurred quite conveniently by 'religion'. Personally, I don't need anyone to dictate my faith to me, and due to that I've come to be quite sceptical of anything people try to force on me through religion.

Anytime anyone asks me if I've read the bible, my first response to them now is: "Which one?" Even the bible has been so warped by religion that there are hundreds of different versions, all translated according to the belief structure of the religion that did the translation. For such an important book, why is there no physical copy left in existence? I would think of all things that would have been protected through the years...

Yeah I know I'm gonna see some flamage for this, but it's an alternative viewpoint. If it makes even one person think then perhaps it's worth the flames.

[]LoL[Harm]

No flamage from me, the bible was written by man. And man is fallible. The bible has some wisdom in it and offers insight in how man can blur a presumed will of God into justifying their actions (seen throughout the Old Test.). I find many things in Ecclesiastes and Proverbs to hold strong messages that can be applied to things still today. But mostly I see the book as insight into the times, more of a journal to those that followed their beliefs.

Something interesting that my friend did to a bible which to some may seem sacrilegious, but he took a Sharpie and went through some of the Old Test. and blacked out all words that spoke approvingly or condoned hatred, killing, slavery and other atrocities of man. You'd be suprised of how little of some books remained. Job was particularly stripped bare as God really "smote" that poor guy, given I never took that book as being literal, though I know some who do.

[spyder913]

Old Test.ICLE!

[]LoL[Harm]

Lol!

[UglyWolf]

Ya guys gotta understand one thing: the movie was made by Mel Gibson and thus is a reflection of Mel's Christianity. Different sects of Christianity choose to emphasis different things. Mel's a Catholic and Catholics tend to focus on the passion. The denomination I grew up in focused on the resurrection and salvation through grace. If a Lutheran had made the same movie, it would be a very different movie.

EDIT: Just as a for example, even though he's Catholic, Scorsese's "The Last Temptation of Christ" was based on a book written by a man steeped in the Eastern Orthodox tradition. Now granted the book was taking certain liberties with the story of Jesus; nonetheless, the plot is the same in it's general qualities and the focus of the movie is VERY different. And that comes from the fact that Easter Orthodoxy tends to emphasis the sublime and divine aspects of the Christ over the actual passion.

Our Blademaster speaks the truth!!! :cheese:

Lets not forget Mel's father, that MUST have had some influence on his upbringing, discounted the Holocaust in a recent interview:

http://entertainment.msn.com/movies/article.aspx?news=150310

Now that thought process scares the hell out of me!!! :eek:

[Mulletious]

this may be completely off topic but what i did not like about this movie is how everyone saw it and became all "born again" or whatever, when i went i saw a ton of teenie boppers there...like its a fad to be christian or something(not like many people actually follow the teachings of christ anyways especially the most important one i would find to be "love thy enemy"...ya that will EVER happen)...you're seeing a movie in a modern day world, just think about where you're watching it...in a MOVIE theater...i couldnt relate to this movie at all...anyways i cant express my thoughts well about this movie so i will shut up