Health Care for All

[Buki]

Today I had the pleasure of finding out that the all important and mighty life changing bill had passed. Music to my ears. I support progress. I did have a couple of notable thoughts about the whole thing.

Firstly I was a bit put off that persons who didn't hold adiquate health insurance would be "fined" a 2.5% income tax I read. I personally will prolly never have insurance and will die realativly young, I don't see any benifit in prolonging human life beyond design. And with my life style I'm going to be headed out sooner than later. So obviously that part put me off.. But I will gladly pay it because I believe some folks do need health care, and the bill is right.

The other thing I noticed whilst reading on yahoo news. The comments on there were flying in 50 a min or so and even more people who clicked the thumbs up or thumbs down icon, indicating weather you agreed or disagreed with said comment. Most of them were Against the bill in some form or another and against Obama, and all that garbage. A majority of the thumbs up or downs supported the same idea.

My biggest concern is what kind of idiots think that an idea that has been installed as far back as end of WWII in the UK is a bad one. Are we really that selfish that a form of care for everyone can't be sorted out. And how many millions of dollars did the insurance companies spend to fight the bill being passed. Money they could have spent on claims ofcourse.

I just can't understand how people bitch and moan about the things that are happening now (that cost money) which will be around for years and years down the road, America used to be great because of its infastructure. Today so many fight it at every step.

[Hollus]

Taxes go up.
There is not a flat tax for it.
Socialized health care degrades quality of health care.

I could list 10 other good reasons, but you get the point.

[Buki]

But quality for whom? And its said that over a decade we will end up taking just over 100 billion off the deficit with this new plan.

And you're assuming the quality will go down. Doctors pay will be said to reflect how well they treat you, not how much treatment they give you.

But besides that, as goes with all my arguments its fundemental. You're stance on it is the exact reason I have to bitch, you're only looking 10 minutes down the road. taxes now quality now flat fee now. All meaningless in a decade or two. It might be wishful thinking on my part but I believe if its worked at it can develop into what we need, whilst meeting its initial goal of providing more healthcare for more people.

[Post]

"Taxes go up."

Do you even know how much or who for? There's some app on the WSJ or some other site that shows, and mine went up a whopping 3.4% for medicare. And I make plenty of money. Most people I know, it stayed the same and/or went down. And that's completely ignoring the fact that insurance rates go down.

"Socialized health care degrades quality of health care."

Ridiculous. Do you honestly think the US has better health care than any other country with socialized health care? Because in order for your point to be pertinent, it would have to be.

[Hollus]

I will put bullet points to reference Canadian, UK, and Australian wait lists, dissatisfaction, and how people will pay thousands of dollars to fly here from over seas for our private health care and will gladly pay out of pocket for the services rendered.

As for taxes, just wait...they'll pick your pocket after you're doubled over from the sucker punch.


Ridiculous. Do you honestly think the US has better health care than any other country with socialized health care? Because in order for your point to be pertinent, it would have to be.


Yes.

[Hollus]

Also, I don't think most people have even read the entire bill. Health care isn't the only thing covered in it. 2000 pages and they threw in a TON of crap that should scare the pants out of every American.

[Post]

Then I guess it's a shame that every non-partisan body of medical researches disagrees with you. I mean, an overall judgment of quality of care is just that - overall. Not taking bits and pieces of the negatives and ignoring the positives.

But hey, it's completely your prerogative to think birth mortality rates, average living ages (even excluding things like gunshots), and the other factors that go into the actual study get trumped by the fact that people exist who complain and pay for ours. Who cares about the averages (what the study is really about)? It's all about the extremes!

[Post]

Come on, are you going to say they shoved it down our throats, too?

[Hollus]

Post, I've seen enough of your debates to know that you are generally all about the extreme ends of most arguments.

And yes. They did. When (borrowing from research and polls...non partisan of course) surveys show that the majority of Americans DO NOT WANT THIS, I'd say it's government over reaching again and deciding what's best for us instead of what we want or need. AKA shoving it down our throats.

[Post]

"Post, I've seen enough of your debates to know that you are generally all about the extreme ends of most arguments."

Um... Take a political measurement test some time. I fall center left. The US falls center right.

And the mention of "shoving it down our throats" is more about the belittling of the talking point and media machine than the point itself.

For that matter, which polls do you consider non-partisan? Gallup, who rated 45% for, 48% against (well within the margin of error)?

Honestly, do you feel we have the best schooling in the world, too?

[Hollus]

...
God no. We have horrible schooling. Horrible Government schooling. Private schools statistically turn out smarter kids, as well as home school.

Sure you want to throw that argument out there? I mean, you see what the government has done to our education.

[]LoL[Harm]

If we had the best medical care in the world, we wouldn't have such paltry infant mortality rates, a lower life expectancy and other measurable health related areas than some countries that supposedly have "inferior" socialized medical care.

We do have some of the best doctors, surgeons and other medical experts in the world, that however doesn't mean they are accessible to the majority of the populace now does it? These foreigners you mention that spend thousands of dollars to come to use the US health care system, are they lower or lower middle class citizens in their countries of origin...or are they actors, dignitaries or other wealthy individuals?

Because for every one of those people you can mention, I can point to 40 million people here in our own damn country that could NEVER see, nor afford those same doctors these foreigners can.

You're example as to why we have the best medical care is not a strong one.

[Post]

"Sure you want to throw that argument out there? I mean, you see what the government has done to our education."

Well, I was wondering, since if you ignore test scores, job application abilities, and all around-knowledge when coming out of school, and just look at the fact that there are complaints about every other school system (there is), and that people from all over the world come to our schools for education (they do), that uses the same qualification methods you do for our health care.

See? Let me use the same structure for health care:

Well, I was wondering, since if you ignore infant mortality, average life expectancy, and all-around health when getting free health care, and just look at the fact that there are some complaints about every other medical system (there is), and that people from all over the world to come to our hospitals for health issues (they do)...

So I'm just curious as to why the methodology can be applied and taken away at will.

[Noleader]

Here are a few thoughts on the topic that I have. First our schools do suck, we spend more then 2x the money per student and have some of the lowest test scores in the world. Yes people come to our colleges from all over the world but they are not really the same thing as our K-12. So I would be very careful linking healthcare sucess or failure to that of our school system.

But back on topic... What authority does the federal government have to force me to buy a product? I know they can tax me and buy it for me but this law actually requires that I buy a product.

I will not argue that healthcare is not a right, I actually think it is one of the rights granted via the declaration (life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness). That being said I do not think the federal government has the authority to mandate what they are with this law nor do I think the founders had intended the federal government ever have control of such a project.

I object to this law on two points. The first is I personally think that a truely free market system would work better and second that the federal government has no authority to do what they are trying to.

[Post]

I wasn't linking it in general; just showing that, if you only look at select pieces and ignore the general expert data, things can look nicer than they really are. As in, our schools and our current health care.

As far as your two points go... I can see where authority comes into play; I just don't see it as cut and dry for something that is voted upon. And while there's no real method to show a free market would work better or not (let's get serious - we'll never have a truly free market in practically anything), I do know that EVERY opportunity in the past that humans have had to allow altruism prevail, someone loses. Severely. It's true in our disagreement in welfare, and it's true in health care.

[Rooster]

If the SCOTUS doesn't declare this farce unconstitutional, everything I feared about the Obama presidency will come to pass. This country will be like Greece in 15 years - bankrupt. And people will blame the party in power. they will forget the warnings, they will forget that the majority of the people (60/40) did not want this nightmare.

The Fed clearly does not have the power to do what it is doing.

It makes me sick to my stomach to think about what this bill does.

Health care costs go down? Seriously Post? You believe that?
You really haven't done the math, have you. You really think the CBO got all the information it needed? You know it didn't - they couldn't score it for most of the last year. The double counting of dollars, etc... it's pitiful.

You can't MAKE a company provide more services for less money. It will not work. People voting FOR this clearly have an agenda - in the short term, sure, the Insurance companies budgets will swell with the rolls growing, but after being forced to cover catrosphic amounts because Joe Blow just signed up with cancer WILL cost money. And they are not allowed to raise their rates when the average cost goes up because they can't regulate who's on the rolls and who isn't. I guarantee you MY health insurance premiums will be going up. But wait, Obama promised that it would go DOWN. Geez, chalk up another lie. This guy makes Bush look like Lancelot.

Also, this quality of care... you guys are so full of the re-tread-crap fed from the left field. The U.S. clearly has the best healthcare in the world. We have some of the best recovery rates in the world - picking your statistics like birth mortality rate or life expectancy, is pure asinine. That has nothing to with QUALITY of life, merely quantity. We could raise it by never taking anyone off life support and keeping vegetables alive until they're 120. Hey, it's your statistic.

Is it free? No. You pay for it. It's a service, not a Right. If if were a "Right" - you don't have to pay for it.

[Post]

Look, if these are the worst fears for you, then honestly, I don't know what to say. I mean, I can't make you believe that the biggest costs for insurance companies isn't paying out, rather, it's finding methods to NOT pay, even if it's documented. I can't make you believe how things like birth mortality rate and life expectancy was used for years upon years by every reputable association in the world that measured that stuff, even if the info's out there.

At least the ironic part is we couldn't raise it by never taking anyone off of life support and keeping them vegetables unless - unless we had universal health care. Heck, in some states, it's ok to take a newborn off of life support, vegetable or not, if the parents can't pay for the treatment.

Oh, and every right you have you pay for in order for it to be enforced.

[Noleader]

I agree with Post in that you can not define a right as something you do not pay for. We established our government to safeguard our rights, which costs us money. Granted they have not been doing a great job the last 100 years, and even kicked it into overdrive when it came to pissing on our rights during the Bush years... but we do pay to safeguard our rights.

It is easy to say health care is just a service but that ignores how our ability to exercise all our other rights are inexplicably tied to us being alive.

I think that this law is crap... I think it is the federal government far out reaching its legel bounds, but I am happy that atleast this will force the hands of the Republicans to change the trainwreak of a system Nixon left us. This law, or atleast parts of it, will be overturned and then Congress will have to address it again.

Also Obama does not make Bush look like Lancelot... To those that don't subscribe to the 'my party kicks ass' mindset you actually see nothing different between the two. Bush was all about socializing the wall street fat cats while Obama decided to do it for everyone. When it comes to civil liberities they both have no regard for the rights of the people or the laws of the land. When it comes to budget Bush was no saint and had he had his way we would have seen the same debt levels under him as we see under Obama.

[Post]

Let me also say I'm not happy with the bill in its current form. I've stated it here and in other forums, and I'll state it again: I frankly think medical insurance should have at least the public option if not single payer.

I also think, after warrantless wiretapping, torture, preemptive war, tax cuts for the rich several times (using reconciliation to do so), and plenty of other things, that if this relatively benign bill is the sum of worst fears for people who are against Obama tooth and nail, we're actually doing pretty good.

[]LoL[Harm]

I'm on a "wait and see" approach.

Just like I was with Homeland Security, which ended up me realizing that Bush likes debt...and who knows, in 8 years I may say the same about this bill.

But unlike so many over-media hyped up people, who are screaming about the end of the world, where were you during the Bush years? You know, the Patriot Act? In all seriousness you have nothing to stand on if you supported that administration and that legislation. You want to actually talk about unconstitutional, the Patriot Act would definitely qualify.

I mean so many people rant about this new legislation and believe that it's the end of the world and that they feel nauseated that they have to pay for it. But when it came to a complete bloated bureaucracy called Homeland Security these same people didn't make a peep and have been and will be paying for that bloated government body for a long time.

I also don't recall any massive uprising or movement from people like the Tea-Baggers about Medicare Plan D, where were the marches, the speeches, the outcry from the Republicans? Wait, I forgot, the republicans are the ones who passed that legislation! So these same people can't run around like a headless chicken-littles now, they have nothing to stand on, I mean seriously are their political eyesight covered in such dense cataracts that they cannot see the blatant hypocrisy of it all?

This bill is stated that it is paid for, which I'm still on a "wait and see" type deal, unlike that of the Homeland Security and that of Medicare Plan D, which were NOT paid for, except by increasing our debt. Where were you when these things passed...that's right you continued to support that administration...that's right you voted the guy in for a second term! Brilliant!

The legislation was voted on, and it passed. Just like Medicare Plan D, just like the fucking Patriot Act. So GET OVER IT. And adopt a nice little "wait and see" like the rest of us normal citizens who aren't over stimulated by the talking points from Fox News or some other "anti-everything that isn't ours" source.

If it screws over our country like so many Tea-Baggers, Fox News and pals say it will, then leave, I hear Rush Limbaugh had already packed his bags for Puerto Rico, so they may want to join him there. But if you want to be a real citizen, then vote and stop crying that stuff passed that you don't like, because it sure as hell has happened in the past and it sure as hell will happen again in the future. Just try to do one thing. Remain consistent in your political views and don't cry foul when its just a bill your party doesn't support, and then stand idly by while they do the same damn thing.

[Noleader]

Just for the record I spoke out about Bush and Congress durning those years. If anything I think I have earned the right to claim I argue on principle and not party. I don't think the rant was not pointed at me but I just wanted to put that out there.

[]LoL[Harm]

Yeah it was really not directed at any individual, I was just venting :).

As a note PBS did a pretty good overview of the bill and what is going in to affect and when.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/health/jan-june10/healthcare_03-22.html

The real stuff starts at the 5 minute mark.

[Noleader]

Did you ever finish watching those shows I posted from Vice?

[]LoL[Harm]

Watched the Liberian one...boy it was rough. Haven't checked out the rest.

I also fixed my rant, it's much less abrasive now :).

[Allison]

I didn't see the first version of the rant, but I totally agree with the second. :)

Nothing annoys me more than partisan hypocrisy. Well, maybe ignorant, partisan hypocrisy. But really, it's hard to tell the difference.

[Buki]

I'm not sure how the authority of this bill is any different than say the law that requires everyone who drives to have a car insurance. Before I left ohio I got fined cause I couldn't prove to the state I had insurance. Thats been around for quite awhile now. Kinda seems the same to me, so this concept shouldn't shock some of you they way you make it sound. Like everything that we fear will come to pass!! Little dramatic.

I think it would be horrible if this bill got overturned in some form or another. Its just money folks, I understand you all like to get into it and try to understand where it all comes from and goes and how it affects you and the other guy. In all truth I think we can all agree that the only way we will crash and burn is if we lose the ability as a country to adapt to changes. I don't think this thing is perfect atm either. I flinched when reading a couple things. But going backwards is exactly the kind of crap that needs to not happen anymore.

A quick and easy example of adaptation could be all those millions of dollars insurance company's spent on advertisment against this bill, instead going to use for real people. Unfortunately if folks continue to fight and fight, that money will continue to go to advertisment against the bill and never get cycled back in to actually do some good.

[Post]

Because the choice to drive is pretty far from just existing as an adult within the US.

[PoxTheSmall]

I find it interesting how polarized folks get over this issue. It's far too complex for me to even begin to understand it (or care, really).

All I know is that our medical system in its current state is a freaking joke. My fiance has been on disability for the last 6 months for a broken foot (a foot broken while on duty, so she has a free off work pass + crazy good insurance) and continues to get one failed treatment after the next.

The doctors won't clear her for work and yet they schedule 5 different doc appointments per week (for a fucking foot injury). They certainly know how to milk an insurance policy quite effectively...

What's weird is that this bill has folks so up in arms that folks are getting all violent and hot under the collar over it. This is the 3rd article I've seen in week where someone's snapped and started threatening folks over it (though, perhaps they're only printing the nut-case stories more prominantly for the sake of riling folks): http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/04/08/BAU71CR8R9.DTL

[Muadi]

Focusing on the nut jobs always helps build the arguments from the other side.... which is why its so hard to get good information.

Good to see you on again Pox ;)