PDA

View Full Version : Corporations Part I – Personhood


]LoL[Harm
03-18-2010, 10:42 AM
The below was posted on my site (http://www.legionoflions.com/www.facemybookspace.net)a while back, but I didn't get any feedback so I'm throwing it to the LoLers :).

Corporations Part I – Personhood
“We may congratulate ourselves that this cruel war is nearing its end.
It has cost a vast amount of treasure and blood. . . .
It has indeed been a trying hour for the Republic; but
I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes
me to tremble for the safety of my country. As a result of the war,
corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places
will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong
its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth
is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed.
I feel at this moment more anxiety for the safety
of my country than ever before, even in the midst of war.
God grant that my suspicions may prove groundless.”
-President Abraham Lincoln Nov. 21st, 1864 (letter to Col. William F. Elkins)I’m throwing this out there to spark debate, if there is any to be had. I can state without hyperbole that there isn’t another country in existence, nor has one ever existed, which has such a thin line between powerful corporations and a nation’s government than that of the United States of America. This is easy to state since at no other time in history has a corporate heavy economy had so much global power and so much centralized wealth, the only other historical comparison I can fathom is the Roman Catholic Church and how through wealth and their monopolistic hold on religion controlled multiple European and the English governments. And though in the perspective of a person, the thinning of this line between corporate power and their influence on our government has been slow, in historic perspective the corporate ascension to power that heavily flavors the state of our nation today has been incredibly fast.

The following things are the foundations or assumptions that must be agreed upon prior to addressing the rest:

1. A corporation’s primary goal is to provide consistent positive gain in shareholder value.

2. A corporation strives for the betterment of their position in their respective market(s) which aids in the strengthening of the company which helps fulfill their primary goal.

3. A corporation attempts to maximize means of control over required resources to better create efficiencies in maximizing profits, which aids in fulfilling the previous two priorities.

4. Quality of product in a market has a direct correlation to competition and regulation. As dominance eliminates competition and regulations are not there to enforce a specific level of quality, quality can be (but it is not compulsory) sacrificed in order to maximize profits.

Adhering to the above assumptions we can move forward in the discussion of current corporate rights and the concepts of privatization. If you cannot agree to the above assumptions feel free to explain why. This is a lengthy discussion and in order to make it easier to discuss I will be breaking it in to three parts, one on corporate personhood, one on the effects of this personhood in the public forum and the last section is on privatization.


Part One: Corporate personhood

One of the largest issues and to me one of the fundamentally flawed portions of our law is that corporations are identified as persons under the 14th Amendment. It appears that in 1886 in the court case of Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific Railroad Company the first legal precedent was set. A summary of which can be found here (http://www.tourolaw.edu/Patch/Santa/). Since this case, others have arisen to solidify this legal assumption that corporations are people and have all the rights of a United States citizen, this is termed by some legal experts as ‘legal fiction’. Multiple court cases have utilized the precedent and I won’t go into those cases here, but instead let us focus on the idea of corporations as people.

As persons we have limitations. We have a set of morals that are infused in us not only by our parents but by the community we live in. It is easily assumed that since corporations are run by people that the morals of those that lead the companies will be reflected in the decisions that the corporations make, this however has been shown to not always be true. In fact, there are numerous psychological tests that show that with layer in between you and those you affect, that some terrible things can be done with little rationalization or guilt. It is this primary difference that causes me the most difficulty in stomaching the current way law grants corporations our rights. They don’t use the rights to insure they are not subjugated by our government, or to insure they can worship where and who they will, or if the government makes a law that infringes upon their god given rights that they have a means to challenge those injustices. They instead use our rights to further their priorities, and those are listed above in 1 through 3 of our assumptions.

Do I think that a corporation should be denied all of our rights and left to the mercy of the government that can then search the corporation at will, deny them the ability to speak publicly, prohibit them due process in court? No, of course not, but the current system is colossally flawed. The flaw is that a corporation, which remember is a person under law, is also not a person right when it matters most, when it commits a crime.

Here’s a good synopsis of what a corporation can get a way with by merely paying monetary fines when caught (this was quoted from this source (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3735/is_199904/ai_n8836370/pg_3/?tag=content;col1)): “A corporation may cause death, injury, disease, and severe physical pain by decisions resulting in pollution, poor design, inadequate quality control, plant safety, and working conditions. Corporations also may impose severe deprivations of income, well-being, and effective personal freedom by decisions on hiring, firing, employment practices, and plant locations. Finally, corporations may exercise influence, power, control, and even coercion over employees, customers, suppliers, and others by manipulating expectations of reward and deprivations, by advertising propaganda, promotions and demotions, not to mention illegal practices.”

Many of the above committed by a real person would be in jail and once they had served their time, prohibited from attaining a position to where they could commit the same crime again and be on some type of restricted life style (probation). For instance if I hired someone to dump a chemical outside of regulated means and contaminated miles of soil that caused birth defects in hundreds of people I would not only be personally responsible for the pain and suffering of those impacted but I would also be banned from gaining access to that chemical ever again on penalty of re-imprisonment and in this day and age most likely labeled a terrorist. However this does not occur for corporations, at least not in a way that impacts them heavily enough to prevent future willful acts.

There are cases out there that do show that criminal charges can be brought against CEO’s and other decision makers in a corporation but the outcomes are comical in many instances, such as US v. Park, where rodent infested warehouses were noted by the FDA, letters were sent to the CEO to clean the mess up, the warehouses were never cleaned up and the company and the CEO was taken to court. The jury found him guilty (the company pleaded guilty, the CEO (respondent) pleaded not guilty) and fined him $50 per incident; I believe there were two incidents but the filing is hard to understand in that regard. However this “massive” fine was never paid, the case was appealed and overturned and the CEO was never stuck with what should have been a failure to comply with FDA regulations, removal from his position and further actions taken against the company if the new CEO did not comply. This is almost the poster-case in all legal actions taken against companies. The company itself will often get stuck with the burden of guilt but those in the decision making positions are rarely fined, incarcerated or in many cases even fired from their positions. This constant defense through dispersion of responsibility apparently is impossible to tackle given our current legal system.

It is also well documented that flouting FDA regulations, even when caught and fined, barely makes a dent in a pharmaceutical corporations profits and since it doesn’t impact their profits and no one goes to jail, well they just keep doing it, almost assuredly with the approval of the shareholders, board of directors and CO’s all of whom are never held accountable. Source (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=a4yV1nYxCGoA&pos=10) This ineffective “wrist-slapping” is a joke and a heavy injustice granting more power to a corporation who can easily disperse responsibility than any one individual has since there isn’t anyone else to whom you can shift the blame.

A solution, if they wish to have our rights, they must be treated like a person at all times, there must be legal repercussions when their actions would be illegal for a person to do, and beyond just monetary fines. The board of directors and the chief officers (and other management) all need to be directly held accountable for any action that can be proven to have been preventable through their direct or indirect actions, doubly so for those that they have been previously warned of, such as in US v. Park.

In addition to the above solution I propose the removal of the legal fiction,, because the Constitution was never written to apply to corporations and any attempt to do so is a willful warping and corruption of the foundation of this country. Businesses should be protected and have many similar rights that we do, but not under the US Constitution. The removal of this legal fiction would go a long way in correcting the issues discussed in the second portion of this write-up, how corporate personhood impacts the public forum.

MickeyFinn
03-18-2010, 01:08 PM
A corporation is much like a human being in that it wants the same thing: more. Just as you would expect a man to do what is in his power to climb the ladder or better himself in whichever way seems necessary to him, we must expect a corporation to do the same.

The only time that money didn't decide the power in history was that radical experiment we call communism, which ended up that way anyway. I'm not sure there is any other fate; whether you call it a corporation or a King.

Post
03-19-2010, 05:57 AM
IMO, giving corporations the rights of people was the worst idea of the free world, ever. I unfortunately don't see any way of reversing it, though.

Muadi
03-19-2010, 03:20 PM
I went to your link, where Natasha posted her whitepaper.

I was only able to read the first 5 web pages. All I could hear was an anti-abortionist whining that corporations that have a lot of money and a lot of power and that the Supreme Court has allowed this atrocity to occur. QQ more....

I'm affraid that I have not read all of your posts though Harm, so I'm not able to really comment on what your also stating. However, other than the 14th Amendment issue, is your position simply one of anti-corporations? Just wondering what your position was. You certainly feel very passionate about the subject, so I was just wondering.

]LoL[Harm
03-19-2010, 03:48 PM
I only specified where I took that quote from, you know, plagiarism and all that jazz. Please don't read other peoples work and attribute it to what I am stating here. If you want my position, read what I wrote. Its long, so I understand if you don't read it. :)

The tl;dr position is not anti-corporation. But I do call it out it's inadequacies.

Buki
03-22-2010, 01:37 PM
they are def the worst thing in existance, and after the apocolypse we must remember not to create any again...

And harm a Ghandi quote? GHANDI!...

MickeyFinn
03-22-2010, 03:38 PM
Yeah, corporations are horrible. How dare we get the best goods possible at the lowest cost possible! It's unconscionable!

Buki
03-22-2010, 03:50 PM
What have you been smokin? Toyota, anyone? Best goods, I think not. And I'm pretty sure you work for walmart. Yeah.

MickeyFinn
03-22-2010, 03:54 PM
Your broad strokes statements reek of ignorance. Sit back a little bit and think about it for a minute. Any company that offers an inferior product for its price will be replaced by a better one. That is exactly why GM is going out of business.

The reason you see mergers such as the Virgin/Sprint one that just took place is because it gives them the opportunity to reduce long term costs and provide the savings to you, the customer. If you find a way to provide a cheaper cell phone service, a cheaper internet service, a higher quality CPU, etc etc, please do so.

Buki
03-22-2010, 03:58 PM
lol my statement was that they are the worst thing in existnace, how you managed see any semblance from that is amazing, really. You must be clairvoyant. or something, like... magical.

But in all sincerety, you are merely mentioning the most basic concept of a corporation and infact business as a whole. You do not need a corporation for business's to go out of.. business. Or for a competetor to see advantages or weaknesses and exploit them. A school child can grasp that, what your missing is the fact that buisness can be done on that level without the business itself needing to be its own entity and have rights. Thats a whole mess that shoud've never started.

Muadi
03-22-2010, 04:42 PM
Well Harm, I do agree with your stance. I do wish the heads of companies (small or large) would be held accountable more often. Some CEOs have been punished (Enron), but most are not (pharmacuticles). It may be hard to pin down though. For the really large corporations, a Board of Directors kind of runs it. But many times, a member of the Board is also a CEO, or a member of another Board of another corporation. Trying to pin one down would be like pushing string. I agree with the premiss, but the application would be next to impossible.

Buki, with out corporations, or any companies in general, you would have nothing. Bikes, Roller Blades, Cars, Trucks, Busses, Computers, Desks, Carpet, housing materials, Electricity, roads, Highways, dams, and on and on..... I bet 95% or more of all things come from, or are processed by companies (big ones being corporations). Even in a communist society, there are corporations, but they are run by the State. I'm not quite sure what you mean by 'they are the wost thing in existance'. I'm thinking maybe Hitler, and other such ass-hats, would be at the top of any 'worst thing in existance' list.

MickeyFinn
03-22-2010, 06:49 PM
Jesus, Buki. You have no basis for an argument, no evidence to support anything you say, your English is difficult to decipher and you make no clear point. I can only assume you have never stepped onto a college campus in your life, and that your argument is based on personal experience at best. Any tiny fragment of a first year economics class stomps all over the junk coming out of your mouth.

This fact is not something that is up for debate: Corporations are not bad. Your entire world depends on them.

If you want to give reasons as to how they aren't perfect, how a high ranking person can be corrupt, or how they can abuse their rights then go for it. But to say they are an overall bad is as stupid as saying the world is flat. The only possible way to think that is to be blind.


You have every right to post here, but please do me a favor first. Go back to the WoW forums until you have a reason to believe what you do, instead of the typical "I think this is the way it is and that means that is the way it is". You have nothing backing up your claims, and that makes what you say moot.

At least Roscoes had a reason to think the crazy shit he did.

Post
03-22-2010, 06:56 PM
Wow, I can't believe you're still mad about that.

]LoL[Harm
03-22-2010, 08:47 PM
"Corporations are not bad. Your entire world depends on them."

No, you are wrong.

Corporations are not the foundation this country stands on, you are ignorant if you believe this and further more seemingly brainwashed.

A corporation is a type of business, it is not business as a whole. It is only a legal entity that does business.

You are using corporation as if it is all encompassing, like saying that all ice cream is Vanilla, and therefore all brown vanilla isn't as good as white or red vanilla.

It just doesn't work.

Also, corporations, just like people, can be very very very bad (because see, they are run by people, so when you state that "corporations aren't bad" you are really saying "people aren't bad", see how that's just not true and kinda silly). So your statement that corporations are not bad, is also very very very wrong, and adds to the feeling that your mind is not open to any of the ideas I have proposed in this topic.

You have not even tried to address any of the points I have made in this topic. Which could mean a few things, possibly you didn't read it, you didn't understand it, you wanted to come in and make statements that lack true substance while ignoring the topic, or you got sidetracked by someone else's posts :).

Now none of the above is in defense of Buki's opinions and are completely separate from his/her stance in this thread.

In regard to Buki's statments, I'm in agreement with Maudi, corporations did bring us a lot of stuff, but a lot of stuff was also brought to us by entrepreneurial individuals who later came to found corporations (which is true of the car and many other great leaps within our country). So corporations are not the Satan of our world and my three-post topic clearly does not demonize them. So I completely disagree with Buki when he basically puts them out there as the "worst things in existence".

MickeyFinn
03-23-2010, 03:54 AM
There are over five million corporations that are currently active within the USA. For every bad one, I can find you a hundred thousand that you (as an American) rely on. A very small percentage make up those mega-huge horrible ones we read about on the news, but in truth they are just victims of an economy of scale. It's not Sprint's fault that growing is the best way to reduce average total cost. It's their fault that their customer service makes me want to murder a young child, but the size itself isn't the problem.

Again- five million American corporations. Your world depends on them. If you abolish the corporation, this country plunges into darkness (economically speaking).

Post
03-23-2010, 05:12 AM
Your argument relies on a black and white solution, to where either corporations are like they are now, or they don't exist at all. I don't think anyone is insinuating that there shouldn't be any type of business structure whatsoever. The issue is that they have the rights of a person, but not the responsibilities.

MickeyFinn
03-23-2010, 05:24 AM
they are def the worst thing in existance, and after the apocolypse we must remember not to create any again...

You sure about that?

Post
03-23-2010, 05:35 AM
Not 100%, but seriously, a corporation without rights of a person is just a business. I'll take back my statement if they specify they're against businesses.

]LoL[Harm
03-23-2010, 10:09 AM
If you continue on with the other portions of the topic you will clearly see that the elimination of the corporate entity is not even mentioned or even insinuated. This is mainly about regulation on corporations and to make you think about the power that a corporation has in our lives. Just like an unchecked government an unchecked corporation can ruin thousands of lives, even hundreds of thousands of lives, willfully and without apparent regret.

This is the latest event that cropped up: http://file.wikileaks.org/file/bbc-trafigura.pdf

MickeyFinn
03-23-2010, 02:39 PM
I never meant to infer that giving a corporation the rights of an individual was a smart idea. I'm a Jeffersonite, I don't like it at all. We know that the situation came about because of strong lobbying by the people with the cash.

]LoL[Harm
03-23-2010, 06:13 PM
Which is a great segue way into part II, which shows that their rights as a "human" citizen give them the right to lobby.

MickeyFinn
03-24-2010, 03:33 AM
As well as contribute to campaign funds