Rift Loot Rule Debate

[Bearabald]

There is a lot of confusion between the loot system for the rift raids lately. We need to come up with consistant rules. Rules are going to be kin-wide, not determined by the raid leader. I want something fair, but consistant.

The discussion about dkp was sort of squashed when I brought it up in the other thread... at least for now :) However, if you have a system that is better than what is currently being used.. speak up.

There are a couple things I would like to discuss:

1. Rerolls. If rerolls are not updated EVERY week then they need to go. If they are not accurate, I dont want them used.

2. Alts. Do alts get a fair roll against mains. Should we allow something like a /roll 120 for mains and a /roll 100 for alts to equal that out?

3. Gem Rot. If we add an alt to the raid to avoid rotting gems, does that person become exempt to the One Gem Per Raid Rule?

4. One Drop Rule. One Gem per Night? One Gem per Raid Lock?

Anything else anyone can think of?

[Noleader]

I liked the old school DAoC rules... anyone that goes has an equal footing on the rolls. Raid leader can request one item before the raid and if it drops they get it outright without rolls. After you win one item you have to wait until everyone gets an item (or no one else wants to roll) before you can roll on a second item. Not that it matters though because I don't play :D

[Bearabald]

Hush NL... go figure out our loot rules for AoC. You need to know everythign there is to know so I have a one-stop shop for all my questions :)

[professorchaos]

I think we should toss the re-roll system, it gets confusing and is too much paper work :(
If only one person needs the boots and automatically wins the gem, then that should be their teal for that lock. Now along those lines, i think we should change it up to one teal per TOON, per lock. ie: nim wins leggings one night, she brings her mini in the next night, she should still be able to roll (sorry to use u as an example nim).
I'm going to have to kick my own ass for saying this, but.....
A dkp system may not be a bad idea for the balrog loot :eek: he is one of the toughest (and was not meant to be a cake-walk) mobs in lotro, and i do think some kind of reward should be given to those who throw themselves at him multiple times. But this should ONLY be for the balrog, it is unfortunate to those who can't come on a consistent basis, but it does give incentive to those who go after him many a times.
As far as extra teals i would'nt mind not having a limit on how many you can grab in a night, if you win 3 teals then your a greedy @$$ and it will be noticed :( so pls, think of other kin mates and their needs.
I say if we do split raids (for lack of a better term), ie: lions joining mneme/bele that we do not count any lion winnings into our own, even if we are after the locks.
As for mains and alts being in the mix, i do like the idea of having someone's main do a /roll 120, i think thats fair mostly due to the fact that some people jsut have crap luck with roll. Of course it is always awesome to win a teal, but i think people's mains should come before your own alt.

[Achilleus]

That all sounds good PC. I don't like dkp much, but it's not my decision. I will make every effort to be there every time. I was wondering if we can have a free roll on everything when we beat the Balrog the first time like we did with Thrang? That was a major accomplishment and everyone was really excited to roll on the brand new stuff. :)

[Aradel]

I do like the /120 or whatever number for the mains and /100 for the alts. I, personally, do not see how it is fair for someone who always brings the same toon to the rift have to roll against someone bringing an alt. The chances of winning that gem I think is lowered. I don't see why we should have an equal chance of winning a gem when that person's main is fully equipped up to thrang. Makes no sense to me.

[professorchaos]

That all sounds good PC. I don't like dkp much, but it's not my decision. I will make every effort to be there every time. I was wondering if we can have a free roll on everything when we beat the Balrog the first time like we did with Thrang? That was a major accomplishment and everyone was really excited to roll on the brand new stuff. :)
This is everyone's call on how the rift loot rules should be, so if it comes down to it the lions can just set up a yes or no survey for balrog dkp. I do lke the idea of having the first balrog downing the same loot rules as we did with thrang :)

[kitty]

well, depends on what you call fair and what you call greedy i guess...i bring kitty mostly because she needs nothing but the shoulders that drop off the shadow chest..is it fair that my main doesnt get to roll? even tho it was my choice, should my alts not get anything? (which is why i try to take them to other raids btw..less ppl to roll in a lions raid, the better chances our own kin gets decked out) and no, no one has asked me to sacrifice that (kitty doesnt need anything anyway) but what if (like last time) you need a specific class (ie my LM) is it fair i get a lower weighted roll? whats my motivation to help? its like dkp, its weighted and unfair. to me its a greed issue, if you are on an alt, and someones main really need it..its up to you to pass or roll, but what if you wanted to bring your main? thats the point im stuck on..if i say..nim, we need your mini not your hunter (haha because its so easy to pick on you nim) why should someones main get a higher roll then her? thats not fair imo. as for the teals, we have come to the point its one per lock, either gem or drop if you ask me, if you choose to roll on a teal drop (like that gaurdian shield) dont QQ about not winning a gem..you got something, with only about 6 other people out of 12 can say. either way,as im not often on for lions raids anymore, ill go as i can and follow the raid rules, but i wont sacrifice myself if im weighted against, if i dont get a fair roll if im asked to bring a different class, you get kitty or none :P

[Aradel]

Ok, first I hate debating because frankly I suck at debating. Secondly, you and pc suck for picking me out of a kin of 100+ to use as an example. lol Lastly, that would make for an interesting point. If your alt is your main in the rift raid. Now, I'm going to step away from this one because I see loop holes everywhere. =P

[Bearabald]

I dont think Alts that are asked to come for the sake of the raid (ie. We need another LM or Mini or whatever, can you bring your ____) count at all towards alt rules. If you are asked for the sake of the raid to bring a certain toon, all bets are off for alt rules in my opinion.

That being said, if you choose to bring your alt over your main, I like the idea of mains have some weighted dice.

I also agree with the one teal per raid. Granted if you when a teal and THEN a gem drops that no one needs except you and it will rot otherwise... sure, that woudl be an exception to the rule.

[Bearabald]

The Balrog free roll talk is troublesome. Frankly, that was a last resort idea for thrang and i hope that type of motivation doesnt need to be used again. It is embarassing, plain and simple. The fact that we have to bribe people that have already won something in the lock to come back so others have a chance for loot is sickening to me. There are numerous people in the kin that are repeatedly talked in to coming to the rift for the sake of the kin (usually on toons they didnt even want to play that night and need no gear until Thrang and Balrog). It is like saying, "yea, I know you helped me get my gear from this raid lock already, but I also want an equal shot at the gear you have been waiting for or I wont help you"

[professorchaos]

I dont think Alts that are asked to come for the sake of the raid (ie. We need another LM or Mini or whatever, can you bring your ____) count at all towards alt rules. If you are asked for the sake of the raid to bring a certain toon, all bets are off for alt rules in my opinion.

That being said, if you choose to bring your alt over your main, I like the idea of mains have some weighted dice.

I also agree with the one teal per raid. Granted if you when a teal and THEN a gem drops that no one needs except you and it will rot otherwise... sure, that woudl be an exception to the rule.
I agree with nan on this, and i think it does solve the issue for kitty's question, if your specifically asked to bring a toon in, then u roll as a main. If you CHOOSE to bring an alt in, then that is ur choice, and eventually we'll prolly hit everyone back to just /100. Now as for motivation for people to be able to pass on gems to a kin mate, i find that sickening also,it should'nt hurt you to see another lion get a gem, in fact, you should be happy for them. Also, most people's mains will get their one item needed, and the rest will be for everyone else. as far as the balrog comes into play....
well, thats just a tough call, hence: the forums :)
Another topic i would like to bring up, would be kin mate's willing to sacrifice WHO they want to play, in accordance of what we need. If you are asked to bring you ___ (in which you will have weighted roll), and u decline becasue u don't want to play that toon, then well....then maybe some of us won't be as willing to help you out when u need it.

[Frothy]

I would really like to see a roster type system for our raids. Something that the raid leader can refer to for filling the raid and yet flexible enough to allow the raid to proceed if a particular class is not available. Since many of us have alts and yet are capable raiders a roster would allow the raid leader to ask players to bring particular classes in rather than having the player dictate who they want to bring. Ergo if you are on time you should be able to bring the character you wish to. But if you are logged as a potential fill-in for the raid you'd have to bring in the class the raid needs at the moment.

Yes we'd all like to have all of our 50s outfitted in unique teal and Rift gear and that will come with patience. Coming to the raid is a kin event and making sure the kin has a successful and enjoyable raid is the goal not outfitting each and every one of your characters in rift gear. I don't want to leave anyone else out so I will only use Kitty and Nanuq as excellent examples. They both have 3 or more level 50 toons and yet they bring the character the raid needs ALWAYS. I know Nanuq would like to see Howdie in Thrill-Seekers armor and Kitty would love to see Mika in Wandering Bards armor but they always suck-it-up and take the character the raid needs. We have more than enough coverage around to allow for all players to enjoy a chance to raid.

[Achilleus]

I know I'm not an officer (hopefully someday though :)) , and this seems more like an officer discussion, but I agree it shouldn't be common practice to win a roll and give the item to someone else that didn't win. Certain exceptions I can see overriding this like with the Fin debacle. I would like to understand more about how the dkp will work for the Balrog. Other kins have corrupted their dkp so much through favoritism and bad accounting. SnB is an example. I have no fear of that here, this is the best and most honest kin I have been in. One thing for example, I was wondering if the dkp points that someone earns will be useable across all of their toons?

[kitty]

thats just it ach..its isnt an officer discussion! everyone should have a say..yes the raid leader (most likely an officer) will determine the final loot rules, but get your say in! personally, i have passed gems onto other players (im not just sacrifical on kitty) but never in a lions raid, i call out the raid leader for a decision (ie. mika won the leggings but passed them onto someone elses main who doesnt get to rift as often) if i get the choice of withdrawing my roll or winning the legs, well i get leggins then :P when we first started raiding, there were very few vets..and we squeaked by filling a raid, often from our friends list. i have stepped down as raid lead, and we have grown so exponentially that its time to have a lions raid loot rules, not just a kittys. as for a roster..dunno how well that will work froth, as i raid with dream and other kins (see above post on reasoning) i try to conserve kitty for our own, as she is the least neediest and best equipped, but if other ppl want to bring thier cappys in, then with some notice, id be more then happy to bring mika..but then that goes back to alt rolls..if i bring mika or att so someone can bring thier mini or lm or cappy..is that my choice or no? when theres enough feedback on this, rough draft and some polling, if people complain about the rift rules, they had thier chance to speak up here imo.
p.s. im a big fan of account ..accounting lol not by toon, that way a player with multiple 50s keeps thier bonuses and can still fill what a raid needs, but ill fight tooth and nail over a non dkp system

[Bearabald]

I know I'm not an officer (hopefully someday though :)) , and this seems more like an officer discussion, but I agree it shouldn't be common practice to win a roll and give the item to someone else that didn't win. Certain exceptions I can see overriding this like with the Fin debacle. I would like to understand more about how the dkp will work for the Balrog. Other kins have corrupted their dkp so much through favoritism and bad accounting. SnB is an example. I have no fear of that here, this is the best and most honest kin I have been in. One thing for example, I was wondering if the dkp points that someone earns will be useable across all of their toons?


Kitty is right. Unfortunately only officers are really chiming in here, but this is really an open forum for the whole kin. Actually, I dont like having too much decision making power solely in the hands of the officers or the kin leader to be honest.

About the dkp.. Achilleus... you rock! You hit the nail on the head about dkp. The reason dkp usually leaves a bad taste in people's mouth is corruption. You need extremely transparent book keeping with dkp. Which takes a very dedicated person to keep up with (you all should know who i would LOVE to see step up for our dkp admin.... think red-headed burg). I talked about a zero-sum based dkp system in one of the other threads recently and that is what I would be pushing if we ever incorporate the system.

[professorchaos]

dammit, mallory use's words that are too big for me already.....:bang:

[Noveah]

I think rerolls need to go too. Noveah has faithfully been at the Lions rifts from the first Rift, what could I possible want to spend umpteen rerolls on?...lol

On that note, I have Noveah, my main pretty well outfitted in rift gear for quite some time and would LOVE to have someone else offer to run a Mini in some future rifts so I can get My Captain in.

Would I like to have Ellasari outfitted in rift gear?, yes I would but more importantly I am looking foward to just getting her the rift Exp... For those of you who play a Mini would understand that this is a whole new play style for me, Up front in the action.

I have seen more Alts come and go in the rift and honestly would like to get a chance to take my Alt in there. Hence where sometimes a roster would be a nice idea but I don't think it would honestly work out in the long run.

I would hope that since many of us have different level 50's we could offer the chance to change it up.

I have watched Kitty in the rift for months and Damn it she IS the BEST DAMN CAPTAIN out there and I want her input and guidance in there.

Most of you know I created Ella because Kitty was our only Kin Captain for quite sometime and I have been chomping at the bit to run her in the "Big Leagues". And creating Ella was strictly MY descision but a good one for I have grown quite fond of Ellasari for many different reasons. BTW Captains Rock!

I honestly get discourgaed to keep rifting when I feel forced to run the Mini roll every week. Don't get me wrong I love it but I am on auto pilot in there and desperatly need a change of scenery. I have no problem mentoring any one who wants to try there unexperienced Mini in the rift , But please let me also get the chance to switch it up too.

At this point DKP is the only way Ellasari would get any gems, not the way I want to outfit her, because I feel you need to play your toon to earn the pieces, but that is only my opinion:) And quite frankly who wants a rift set with out actually having your toon earn it?


So please, someone else offer to take there Mini in there so I can get a chance to take My Capt. in:laugh:

[Aradel]

You guys know that I have always offered to bring other toons. I, myself, have never said nimawey or nothing. I don't really care how the rolls go, so long as it's not dkp.

[Frothy]

Wow dkp is really unpopular and perhaps is not compatible with the Lions. I see one problem being that the Lions are almost able to run two raids but not quite there yet - so space in our one raid is in demand WHICH IS AWESOME. I wouldn't have imagined the Lions being on the brink of running two Rift raids so soon but we're almost there - OMG Helgorod may soon be possible for the Lions. Once we are able to run two raids I think much of the issues will be resolved but will always be in the background until we establish some rules. I do think the reroll system is dead because it is combersome to manage. Although I know Frothy has benefitted from rerolls a few times it just seems too much to ask of someone to try and manage this, especially when sometimes we bring alternative players from outside the kin.

As for raid composition and the roster thing I think it is the raid leader's responsibility (with feedback from the raid and officers) to determine what classes we need per raid - especially from the fill-ins. Allowing a fill-in player with multiple 50s to determine who they are bringing in is not good practice nor always in the best interest of the raid as a whole. But if the raid leaders (Sporto and me currently) make this decision on behalf of the raid it needs to be respected. Having 5 hunters, or 5 guards, or whatever is not good raid composition and we all know that. I look at every raid as what if we make it to Everseer or Balrog tonight so I think raid composition is important from the start.

[Korneilius]

I've had so many issues with loot rules that I'm not sure where to start or if I should at all! lol

The one thing that just always seems to sit outside my comfort zone is master looter. For bosses I can understand it completely. But for trash mobs it personally makes no sense.

One thing I've noticed is that by the end of the night when we call it an evening things like rift iron scraps and shards are completely forgotten about. And nothing is followed up the next day. And it really really bugs me because I want some coins for myself too! And I'm not trying to sound selfish or anything but it just doesn't make sense to have Master Looter for trash mobs at all. Roll/Pass would be something that makes everyone happy I think.

As far as dkp for the balrog, I don't completely understand it but have a basic concept of it. And I don't feel comfortable with the idea. I honestly don't trust any loot system that another player can control. Because there's always going to be cliques and favoritism over something. And there will be the issue of people talking about how "this person and that person got this and that, and I didn't get anything" with the automated systems you roll and this is the number you get and you win it. No arguements can be made over who got this and who didn't get that because the raid leader passes the loot out.

Maybe it's just trust issues I have, but I'm just not comfortable with player controlled loot systems. I always find myself finding something to complain about. But I can live with the decision that kin leader makes to benefit all of us.

Side Note- Kitty why don't you want the whole rift set?

[Bearabald]

One thing I've noticed is that by the end of the night when we call it an evening things like rift iron scraps and shards are completely forgotten about. And nothing is followed up the next day. And it really really bugs me because I want some coins for myself too!

Good Point and something I have been meaning to mention.

It really isnt a big deal if you want some coins, just speak up and let me know how many you need. That goes for anyone in the kin that runs the rift with us. If you want coins... just shoot me a in-game mail or tell. There has been several raids lately that have completely fallen apart before the passing out coins. People are so spread out that i dont feel like tracking people down to pass out the darn things :)

I have actually gotten used to not passing out coins now (it saves a ton of time), and I think it might be time to just keep them together and pass them out whenever they are needed.

Every, and I mean every coin that i have earned personally or kept after a raid that wasnt passed out has been saved and rests safely in the kin officer chest. Not a single one has ever been spent, given away, or sold. We have like 30 coins (most of which are my personal coins or coins donated by my brother since he never needed them when raiding with Maelstorm). Nonetheless, I probably have 10+ coins that shoudl haev been passed out at the end of raids. The only thing I will ever use a coin for is the teal ring after i get the other one (buying it now has no point).

Master Loot is being used to stop distractions. I dont want 5 people stopping to check out what they are rolling on because someone accidently looted during a fight. 99% of the loot is junk and what i do is go down the list of master loot and pass it out in order of how the names are listed in the master looter box (granted i do forget where i was from time to time,.. in which case i guess lol). The only thing that is usually horded is the unyielding drake scales (which go in the kin chest for class quest needs). As far as I know nothing of value has ever been not rolled for and given out.

if you see me being the ML, you dont have to worry about me ninja'ing anything :) Trust me, i have enough gold, lol. Hell... i cant give anyway my gold fast enough.

[Korneilius]

if you see me being the ML, you dont have to worry about me ninja'ing anything :) Trust me, i have enough gold, lol. Hell... i cant give anyway my gold fast enough.


*waves hand* Ooh Ooh Pick Me! :D

It sounds like a good idea to have someone hold onto all the coins and give them out when they're needed. If that does get set in stone would it be this person's responsibility to purchase/give group shadow mit. pots? And can the coins be used to buy hope tokens and pots last minute?

That's my main concern. Because most of the time I don't have the materials I need to make pots myself or the means to collect the vases. I have a hard time mining mms as well so it's hard to make tokens for myself ( most of the time my other half makes them for me with his jewler! ).

Will that be acceptable for kinmates to do?

[Caerylwyn]

ACK! I spent an hour making a post only to have it go into the ozone!

[Achilleus]

I think rerolls need to go too. Noveah has faithfully been at the Lions rifts from the first Rift, what could I possible want to spend umpteen rerolls on?...lol

On that note, I have Noveah, my main pretty well outfitted in rift gear for quite some time and would LOVE to have someone else offer to run a Mini in some future rifts so I can get My Captain in.

Would I like to have Ellasari outfitted in rift gear?, yes I would but more importantly I am looking foward to just getting her the rift Exp... For those of you who play a Mini would understand that this is a whole new play style for me, Up front in the action.

I have seen more Alts come and go in the rift and honestly would like to get a chance to take my Alt in there. Hence where sometimes a roster would be a nice idea but I don't think it would honestly work out in the long run.

I would hope that since many of us have different level 50's we could offer the chance to change it up.

I have watched Kitty in the rift for months and Damn it she IS the BEST DAMN CAPTAIN out there and I want her input and guidance in there.

Most of you know I created Ella because Kitty was our only Kin Captain for quite sometime and I have been chomping at the bit to run her in the "Big Leagues". And creating Ella was strictly MY descision but a good one for I have grown quite fond of Ellasari for many different reasons. BTW Captains Rock!

I honestly get discourgaed to keep rifting when I feel forced to run the Mini roll every week. Don't get me wrong I love it but I am on auto pilot in there and desperatly need a change of scenery. I have no problem mentoring any one who wants to try there unexperienced Mini in the rift , But please let me also get the chance to switch it up too.

At this point DKP is the only way Ellasari would get any gems, not the way I want to outfit her, because I feel you need to play your toon to earn the pieces, but that is only my opinion:) And quite frankly who wants a rift set with out actually having your toon earn it?


So please, someone else offer to take there Mini in there so I can get a chance to take My Capt. in:laugh:

I would be happy to bring my Minstrel in for you. I have a good bit of experience with my minstrel in the rift. I know we are getting several new minstrels in that want to raid which is good. So, we will make it happen for you. I have been playing my guard like a main for a while now, but I have several characters I can bring and my minstrel is still technically my main. I have been fortunate on many rolls and I know others haven't so don't hesitate to ask me.

I can see how rerolls should go, even though I never got to use my only single reroll. :( But, if we can't manage rerolls effectively then we will probably have a problem with dkp accounting as well. Like I said, I trust and like each and every one of you, so I will go along with whatever system you guys choose. I don't want to be greedy, I have 3 pieces of rift gear on 2 toons so I feel pretty fortunate.

[Noveah]

[quote=Achilleus;158854]I would be happy to bring my Minstrel in for you. I have a good bit of experience with my minstrel in the rift. I know we are getting several new minstrels in that want to raid which is good. So, we will make it happen for you. I have been playing my guard like a main for a while now, but I have several characters I can bring and my minstrel is still technically my main. I have been fortunate on many rolls and I know others haven't so don't hesitate to ask me.

THANK YOU Achilleus!!!!!!!

I would love to "exchanage" minis so to speak of in a future rift:):cheese:

I am more than Willing to use Noveah from Thrang and on since she is the toon I have the best knowledge on in there and i really want to see all of our peeps with there gear that they have tried for 4 months and counting to get....LOL.

[Frothy]

The more I read feedback from the kin the more I feel as though dkp may be doomed from the start. Ach has some experience, much of it bad it seems with SnB, with dkp so I trust his input here. I also agree that if we have too much trouble managing and maintaining our reroll system dkp may be out of our league. But I think in the right hands and the right person dkp can work. Now forgive me for any of my misconceptions or simply not understanding dkp since I've never raided under this system. Would a dkp system where points were given to a player rather than a character work? I define character as being your main or one of your alts (Frothy, Leandorin, Adanyll & Dwittle) and player as you the person (Frothy and Leandorin are played by Jim). It looks like Maelstrom grants their points to characters not players. I think if dkp awarded points to a player who regularly raids on various characters, dkp is a better match for the Lions. However where does this put our players who rarely have an opportunity to raid for one reason or another?

[Noleader]

Take this with a grain of salt as I am not in that game. Speaking as a hardcore gamer there is nothing that will run me out of a guild or raiding faster then DKP. Raids have a limited number of spots and sometimes some folks can't go (RL or limited room) so they get excluded... yet you need those people other times because the regulars are offline. So you invite them in those off times and all they end up doing is helping gear up the regulars that attend and waste a shitload of time without any reward for themselves.

There is no system better then the way we ran loot in DAoC... Everyone is on a even footing and if you know someone is on a main and you on a alt you pass the loot to them. I can't think of one time when someone felt cheated. With the DKP system I and a number of other folks I know felt cheated. Had it not been for a friend looking out for me I doubt I would have gotten any gear.

Simple rule that keeps raiding fun and looting simple: Act like a loot whore and you don't go on raids anymore.

[professorchaos]

Take this with a grain of salt as I am not in that game. Speaking as a hardcore gamer there is nothing that will run me out of a guild or raiding faster then DKP. Raids have a limited number of spots and sometimes some folks can't go (RL or limited room) so they get excluded... yet you need those people other times because the regulars are offline. So you invite them in those off times and all they end up doing is helping gear up the regulars that attend and waste a shitload of time without any reward for themselves.

There is no system better then the way we ran loot in DAoC... Everyone is on a even footing and if you know someone is on a main and you on a alt you pass the loot to them. I can't think of one time when someone felt cheated. With the DKP system I and a number of other folks I know felt cheated. Had it not been for a friend looking out for me I doubt I would have gotten any gear.

Simple rule that keeps raiding fun and looting simple: Act like a loot whore and you don't go on raids anymore.
amen noleader

[professorchaos]

At this point DKP is the only way Ellasari would get any gems, not the way I want to outfit her, because I feel you need to play your toon to earn the pieces, but that is only my opinion:) And quite frankly who wants a rift set with out actually having your toon earn it?
Now is this toon or player dkp? if its player dkp then we still have the same problem alts getting geared up before others mains....

[Korneilius]

I totally agree. If rerolls can't be manage dkp is certainly out of the question.

There has to be a system that encourages kin members to rift but at the same time makes it easier for everyone to get their fair share of the loot.

But what kind of system would be easy to manage and track? That's the really hard question! :bang:

I had once suggested that kin members roll at the beginning of the raid and whoever wins gets all the gems of that night. If there were any extras or ones that this person already has, it's a free roll.

What do you think?

[Frothy]

Okay so if the dkp system is not compatible with the Lions where do we go from here? I still believe our 1 gem per character per lock works. We have been getting some very very nice teal items aside from the gems that is enough to wet anyone's pallet (i.e. Korn's new ugly helm -btw Frothy would have no shame wearing that thing or Nim's new bracelet - omg Leandorin would love to have one of those around his wrist).

Managing who gets to take what character to the Rift is a different debate that I think is starting to work itself out already. I think through talking with one another and the raid members we will work this out and who gets to take who. We are all friendly players and caring people - everyone will get a chance now that we have so many 50s in so many classes regularly on.

[Achilleus]

One thing I would like to see is the date and time of the rift each week posted on this site and in the MOTD. I may be picky, but I prefer detail oriented. :cheese: Alot of the time when I get on, nobody knows anything about when or if the rift is going to happen. Maybe a section on the forum should be created devoted to weekly rift dates and times. It would be good for new people and/or if the rift time or day is going to be altered that week. The MOTD is important as well for those that never visit this site. I hate standing in the kinhouse front yard hoping people show up for the raid. :) Just trying to get people on the fly doesn't work very well. Planning in advance the days, time and leaders would be very helpful. Even if the details are going to be the same the next week, I think it should still be done with the proper date so nobody can say they didn't know. :cheese:

[Korneilius]

Planning in advance the days, time and leaders would be very helpful. Even if the details are going to be the same the next week, I think it should still be done with the proper date so nobody can say they didn't know. :cheese:


AND! Everyone is better prepared for the runs because they have time to gather materials

[Golmacmourna]

if you don't want dkp and you're iffy on rerolls, and you *still* think rolling at random is no good, you could have everyone roll at the beginning of the raid, write it down, and then go down the list everytime something drops. If the person can have it and needs it--give it to them. If not, skip to the next person in the list. Mark a tick next to everyone's name when they get something, and start with the 0 ticks, then the 1 ticks, then the 2 ticks. Then you get the rolling out of the way all at once, the order is obvious, it's rigged to, as much as possible, give everybody a precious, and, assuming that's still not enough pure unfiltered joy beaming straight into your brain--you can let people skip their turn voluntarily.

[Bearabald]

if you don't want dkp and you're iffy on rerolls, and you *still* think rolling at random is no good, you could have everyone roll at the beginning of the raid, write it down, and then go down the list everytime something drops. If the person can have it and needs it--give it to them. If not, skip to the next person in the list. Mark a tick next to everyone's name when they get something, and start with the 0 ticks, then the 1 ticks, then the 2 ticks. Then you get the rolling out of the way all at once, the order is obvious, it's rigged to, as much as possible, give everybody a precious, and, assuming that's still not enough pure unfiltered joy beaming straight into your brain--you can let people skip their turn voluntarily.

The only problem i see with this is that if you are not in the top half people will have no motivation to push on. Only about 6-8 teals drop in a good night and it takes 12 people to raid.

[Frothy]

Thank you so much Ach and Korn! I want our raids to take advantage of these two resources (in-game MoD and Legion of Lions). About a month ago I posted a thread asking for feedback regarding Rift availability (i.e. times and days). I really want to establish a regular raid schedule and time so that all the raiders have some continuity for when the kin is raiding. Since I have been a Lion we seem to raid sometimes Thursday, but more often Friday and then again on Sunday. So far this seems to be working but this is also why I started this thread - what seems to be working from my point-of-view may not work for others. Feel free to use this thread to post your availability and I will work on getting the schedule out there on the MoD and on this website.

[Noveah]

At this point DKP is the only way Ellasari would get any gems, not the way I want to outfit her, because I feel you need to play your toon to earn the pieces, but that is only my opinion:) And quite frankly who wants a rift set with out actually having your toon earn it?
Now is this toon or player dkp? if its player dkp then we still have the same problem alts getting geared up before others mains....



What I am saying here is DKP would look like the option.....If you read I THINK she(TOON) must be there to win or have the chance on gem rolls, As I would NOT outfit a character in something Noveah won. I believe you should earn your gear on your toon fair and square....Just like running CD for multiple times for the slime...show up, help your kin mates multiple times and one day you will get it.

I do not like the sound of DKP, was trying to state that as of now it looks like the only way to outfit her......AND THAT IS NOT MY CUP OF TEA!!!!

Besides DKP sounds like a whole can of nastiness and I would hate to see that split a kin that has grown such as ours :laugh:

I would love to see the main characters have their complete sets first. I look at Pure in the rift like clockwork every Friday and he still has yet to get the gear, DKP would kill him because we can't always raid when it is convienient for everyone. I am just using his toon for an example as I am sure others fall in the same boat....

I guess if everyone has boots already can we start bringing in Alts to collect that gem piece? hate to see it rot....

And judging by the lenght of this thread it shows that We Lions have grown to put our trust and faith in each member to try to work out what would be best for all..

And that is a very good thing :cheese:

[Frothy]

Holy cow - what an awesome thread you have started Nanuq! This the most action I've seen on a LoTR Online thread yet.

[Bearabald]

I would not even try to push for dkp at this point because people think of it as the boogie man of the game for whatever reason, usually ignorance.

In a zero-sum dkp system there is no way to get that far ahead of everyone else since the total dkp of all the players shoudl always add up to the same sum (yea, it would change when new people come or leave the system). The value of your dkp doesnt deminish if you miss raids.

I NEVER had any intention to support a dkp system for the rift, but what bothers me is we have people that are willing to pass complete judgement on somethign like that without really understanding it. Being close-minded doesnt leave much room for debate. I have had at least 3 people tell me that they dont want to raid if we ever introduce anything like that. I have also had to deal with people tell me they are sick of coming since they never seem to win anything because of poor luck with rolls.

I guess it shoudlnt bother me that much since i am leaving lotro soon and plan on passing the kin lead to someone else when i do.

We keep saying that loot problems are not a big deal since people just to not be greedy. At the same time we have people that are not willing to help on Thrang or the Balrog if they dont have a chance of winning something if they have already won something that week. There is greed in the kin, too much of it imo.

[professorchaos]

*cracks knuckles*
so far as what i have seen so far, these are the issues:
1) showing incentive to those who can't raid on a weekly basis
2) alts winning gear over mains
3) Balancing class compesition (sp?) for raids
4) MOTD and proper notificaton as to when, and who is leading
5) gems along with teal drops, and how many can one person win?
Answers:
1) I think many of us (including myself until recently) have misunderstood dkp. Many of us have the idea that a true dkp system means that whoever has the highest points, will win that item regardless, which is not true. *looks for nanuq's next post* read his thread very carefully, and keep in mind that everyone in attendance will not walk away empty handed.
2)I think this can readily be solved by actually caring about other kin mates, not saying u can't roll, but pls think of others who all they need is one peice. If you have two toons with the gloves, then pls, for the love of god pass on it so someone's main can win it.
3) There are some boss's in the rift that we can get by with having a goofy compasition ( ya ya, figured if i spelled it 10 different ways one would be correct :P). But some we have to have the right mix , otherwise its a real pita for it to run smoothly. For those that were present at last nights raid, i think that maybe i had the right idea on how to do it. As jack-ass'ery as this is going to sound, its a lot harder for people to say "no, i play this class or i go home" in front of 11 others then just tells. If that is not your style as raid lead, then maybe just send tells to those who have alts and class's that we need, and figure out some kind of deal/resolution.
4) we have definitely been slacking lately, and i think last night was a prime example as to how many lions are still wanting to raid. I noticed bob and jer had asked multiple times if we're going to raid, and no one asnswered but myself, and all i could say was "i don't know". Everyone knows the cliche' saying, "there are leaders, and there are followers". Tbh you don't have to be a leader for the rift, i think anyone can rally up the troops at the kin house. Now once inside the rift, well...there are plenty of lions who know it inside out, and can do it "farm mode", and all that raid needs is someone to explain raid assist, and say "go". Actually saying something and having everyone wait for 5 mins can make or break the attitude of the raid. As for myself and how i lead, u can see there is still stuff i don't know, so i ask. "how many waves/mobs are in this?" and EVERYTIME i get an answer, all lead needs to do is say "go" and just some little stuff.
5) Nanuq's dkp system will take care of this 100%, so if it worth to you to drop all your points, others gain what u have spent.

I really do hope that lions can continually raid without having petty drama/greed get in the way of things. I believe that if your getting upset over loot, or dkp, or whatever it is, you need to take a look at some of our more quiet members. Veleriana and Tris (and of course others) have never once complained about loot, or alts, or anything else. When they come raid you can see how much they enjoy the challenge (as nerve racking as it is :P), their happy to see someone else win, and their overjoyed when they do, which i do hope they start winning (nanuqrolls>trisroll, never thought someone could have that bad of luck)
I also want to state that officer's themselves really need to step it up when it comes to organizing kin raids, it was sad to see multiple kin mates ask about rift, and not have one single officer give it a shot. I am not calling out officer's (cause hell, i was one), but you do have 20 other kinmates looking up to you to make that move.

[Bearabald]

Okay I posted an example of a dkp system on another thread, but proff asked me to do another example of what I am talking about. I sent this to him in a private tell to help him understand it.

Zero-Sum DKP System:
Everyone starts with 10 dkp (so if you come for the 1st time, you automatically have 10dkp to spend)
Min Bid on a teal is 10dkp

1st Example: Boots drop, and only one person needs them. That person receives the boots for 10dkp. The rest of the raid then receives 10/12 (.8 dkp). Now everyone else has 10.8 and the person that won has .8 dkp. The first few raids will have ties and these will need to be broken by a /roll. You can even go negative if something is defaulted to you while you don’t have enough dkp.

Eventually everyone will have a different amount. However the total of the raid should more or less equal 12x10 = 120
Example:
Nanuq - 25
Proff - 23
Frothy - 11
Noveah - 5

2nd example: After a few raids you will see a natural distribution. At this point we would use a bidding system. Say frothy and proff wanted the shoulders. Proff sends a private tell to Nanuq saying he would be willing to spend 18 points of dkp. Frothy sends a private tell to Nanuq saying he would spend all his 11. In this case, Proff would win the item for 12 points and that 12points would be then put back in the system by dividing it by 12 and giving everyone one point (12/12).

There is NO WAY to get that far ahead of the average because if you build up dkp by passing on loot you only give yourself more of a chance to win a new drop 1st (but most likely at a very high price) and then your points would be distributed back to the raid and you would be back in the thick of things again.

A new person joining the kin's raid for the first time would come in at 10dkp (which should be approximately the average dkp for the whole raid). This new person would be right in the middle of the race basically, so it really doesn’t matter WHEN you join.

Say you had 20dkp and then didn’t raid for 2 months. When you came back you would have 20dkp, which would be more than the average amount of the total raid (which is still 10dkp). So you still have a huge chance of winning something regardless of your absence.



The biggest issue will be bookkeeping since lotro doesnt have dkp addons. It would take someone that is good with numbers and excel to keep track of things. This person would also have to be trustworthy and dedicated to the kin beyond belief :)

[Noveah]

[quote=Bearabald;158874]I would not even try to push for dkp at this point because people think of it as the boogie man of the game for whatever reason, usually ignorance.

Okay I'll be the first to raise my hand an admit I am ignorant on DKP....:stupid:

I read the last post By nanuq and I have a Little better understanding, but man I am still sorta lost on it....

Here is my "Blonde" questions......

If we have DKP on a person....and not a toon, how would you transfer the gem?

I mean if I raid faithfully with Noveah because that is what class we need and I have all the gems and win a chest piece, how could I take the gem to outfit my Alt? I am totally clueless on this....

How would DKP benefit me as a player if I am set Thrang and up?

I am not typing this trying to sound gready, really.....I am just more confused than usual and I am trying to keep an open mind on what works..

See I reallllllly am CLUELESS....:)

[Bobalin]

Ok this is my first post on the forums and I envisage it may become quite a long one so i apologise beforehand if I waffle on for too long and become incoherent. For convenience I have put my main points in bold.

I have been thinking about the rift loot rules situation quite hard and reading the posts on this thread and there are a number of comments and suggestions I would like to make.

First of all I would like to address the comments made about Master Looter. For me, Master Looter is ESSENTIAL. The primary reason is that for some classes it is impossible to keep up with what they need to do in addition to inspecting loot that pops up to see whether they want it. In particular I am thinking of minstrels who are spam healing or the main assist who is scouring for targets.

My second point is about re-rolls. I agree with most people who have said that re-rolls are probably unworkable. When I first learnt of them I thought it was a bit unfair that someone who is already well kitted out and is stacked with re-rolls could potentially roll on the thrang/balrog gems or any teal over and over again until they won that item. The whole idea of not having a dkp system is that everyone is on an equal footing to win teals. That being said, there is a case for those people who do not need anything but consistently come on raids for the benefit of the rest of the kin. My suggestion is that everytime you come away from the rift empty handed, you get 10 added to you maximum roll until you win something, when it is reset to 100. So using Kitty as an example who needs the shoulders that drop from the shadow eater chest (and nothing else), by the time it finally appears she may get to roll out of 150 and have a greater chance of getting an item she has been after for many months.
Obviously there are exceptional circumstances that need to be considered and I have thought about a few and will highlight how I think they are best dealt with. Situation 1, rift gets locks up to, let's say, poptart. Obviously 4 people get gems and perhaps a few more get teals. The remaining players DO NOT get and extra 10 until the locks expire, that is to say, if we continue to thrang another day, the same maximum rolls apply. After thrang is defeated the 10's can be added to the individual's rolls meaning if later in the week we decide to use the locks on an alt run, then the new rolls apply. Obviously there are more situations that need thought and I would appreciate your comments/input.

This brings me nicely to the Balrog. This is a tricky subject and I firmly believe that those people who repeatedly throw themselves at the wrath of the rog deserve some kind of advantage for when we finally get him. Hopefully if we decide on a fair way of handling this it will encourage more people to go on Rog attempts, clearly the more people with experience with the fight we have, the more likely we are to get him. OK so what can we do? Well I think the idea of adding a certain amount to an individuals roll for the balrog for every balrog wipe is workable, however since a group can make several attempts in one sitting, perhaps 10 is a bit too much. Maybe 5 is a bit more fair. I feel this system may be the best way to get people down there until we get the rog on farm at which point the first system would take over.

I'm sure some people will completely disagree with me and I accept that if these ideas have any chance of succeeding, someone, probably an officer, must take the responsibility of logging the results of every rift run in a clearly accessible location so that we have absolute transparency. It would be the responsibility of the raid leader to communicate the raid results to this person and the responsibility of ALL of us to make sure this is done. This leads to the issue of Rog attempts with different kin runs. I'm sure many of the officers know and trust the raid leaders for the kins on dream and so if you decide to go for Rog attempts with a dream kin, then you should ask the raid leader to let the appropriate person know the number of wipes or indeed of success. That being said it would probably be wise to let an officer know what you are doing beforehand so as to minimise confusion. If you decide to go on a Rog attempt with a kin which isn't on the dream channel then you should ask the an officer to speak to the raid leader so everyone knows what the deal is. I apologise if this sounds a bit untrusting however I believe the more people who know the better you are protected.

Ok now onto alts. I have quite a different view from the comments posted about alts. Personally, I consider my alts to be mains when they get to 50. I play comfortably with them all and would like to see them all kitted out eventually. There are two reasons I have alts in the first place, firstly to learn how to play different classes better by seeing their effects from a diffenent perspective, and two, specifically for being able to bring the required class if we are short for raids. I know that not all people have alts for the same reasons but regardless, if we say that mains have some kind of preference over alts unless you are asked to switch for the sake of the raid, the I foresee eventually everyone saying they want to bring their mains so as to get an advantage for rolls, thus nullifying the advantage in the first place. The issue of who brings which toon because they need which gem is tough and I don't think there is a set system we can use to make it easier. The best way is to form early and discuss who needs what and compromise. Afterall, we are kin and we should be happy for eachother's loots and be willing to sacrifice every now and then and come with a toon that needs nothing since the people you are helping are the REASON you need nothing!

Finally multiple teals. Of course, it should be one teal per run (a run being defined in the same way as when one gets 10 added to their maximum roll). Exceptions are class specific armour pieces which should be considered random world drops and all members of the class can roll regardless of whether they have won anything already or not. One final point. When a chest contains multiple teals it would be appreciated if they are all put in chat together. That way someone may decide not to roll on a gem (for example) because if they win they would not get a chance roll on the teal. One issue with this is if they lose the roll on the teal they might want to roll on the gem again. To clarify this it may be necessary to specify that the gem is always rolled for and distributed first and so if you want to roll for the teal you should pass the gem (because you can't win it). In my opinion this is fair since the teal is a rare drop and is worth giving up a roll on an item which drops every time.

OK that's it. Sorry for going on so long and thank you for your patience in reading it all. I know a lot of my points may be considered contraversial or just down right shit, but as long as I provoke some kind of discussion on these points I will be glad.

See you all over Thrang's dead body soon
Bob

~God does not play dice....because if he did he would have a full rift armour set by now...

[professorchaos]

but proff asked me to do another example of what I am talking about. I sent this to him in a private tell to help him understand it. - nanuq
and he used small words for me :) +1 for nanu...

[professorchaos]

however we come to a conclusion with rift loot rules (hopefully vote). I personally am voting for nanuq's dkp system.
I find it to be the most rewarding for those that do rift, and those that don't on a regular basis.
As for your question noveah, u can't transfer gems to alts, whatever toon is there and wins the gem, that toon gets it. hence, the deal with alts.

[Bearabald]

however we come to a conclusion with rift loot rules (hopefully vote). I personally am voting for nanuq's dkp system.
I find it to be the most rewarding for those that do rift, and those that don't on a regular basis.
As for your question noveah, u can't transfer gems to alts, whatever toon is there and wins the gem, that toon gets it. hence, the deal with alts.

be careful, I never said we would use it for the rift per say. I am thinking more about the expansion and new content. Something like Bob's idea may be nice for the rift tho. It would again run in to the same problem rerolls had. It would need to be faithfully updated and someone (or a couple people) would have to volunteer to kep it up to date.

[Bearabald]

Bob's view on alts is usually going to be that of the minority. Most people would love to see all their 50s well-geared (I know I would love to have Llealyn, Howdie, and Nanuq all decked out).

However, in a kin you want to spread out gear across as many people (and as evenly as possible) to further the kin. It doesnt help to have one person with 3 level 50s all geared up. It DOES help to have 3 seperate people geared up.

I know your not trying to be greedy by wanting more than one of your toons to be geared up (if you were, we all would be guilty of it), but that is how it will be interupted by the people that you win gear from when one of your 50s already have gear and you are taking gear away from someone who is trying to gear up their 1st toon.

[Caerylwyn]

Ummmm... PC? This is a free tool I have used for years called ieSpell, it works with your Internet Explorer to correct spelling in message boards and is very vbulletin friendly. I use it on the site I run which is also vbulletin.

http://www.iespell.com/download.php

I wouldn't be without it.

You find it on your I.E. 7 under the little gear wheel menu once you install it.

[Noveah]

Would we be able to get a list of whose 50's need what?

Can we then out fit the Rift Raiders mains who are out the one piece up to Thrang?

just a thought....

[professorchaos]

be careful, I never said we would use it for the rift per say. I am thinking more about the expansion and new content. Something like Bob's idea may be nice for the rift tho. It would again run in to the same problem rerolls had. It would need to be faithfully updated and someone (or a couple people) would have to volunteer to kep it up to date.
I threw "rift loot rules" out there, how ever new content comes up with teal gems, or items that take a raid to get, is how i view the zero-sum dkp system as being the most fair, and overall best way to distribute loot.

[Bobalin]

Sorry Nanuq, I think my comments about alts were misinterpreted. The main point I wanted to highlight was that if we give mains some kind of preferencial roll over alts, everyone will begin to insist on bringing their mains knowing full well that they will probably have to swap but that way they can keep the advantage. My comments about my personal 'alts' were meant to highlight that the reason I have alts in the first place is to be able to switch to a more suitable class if needed. As far as rift gear for them is concerned, although it would be nice, I consider it a luxury, not a necessity.

[Trissie]

Hello Everybody,

Loot: bah it's a crazy issue in every game I have played! lol

I play this game for enjoyment ONLY, as far as loot is concerned, even thou it is needed for each class to benefit the whole grp when raiding it is not a big deal to me. I do like getting new things if it looks pretty on me char :p but heck it's just loot lol

I don't see a problem with your looting system now, no one is greedy, everyone seems to want to help each other out, so eventually u will get that pretty item that u want for your mains/alts. Seems to me everyone is willing to share what is needed for those that desperately want something. I'm happy for anyone who wins. *cheers*

If u need a Mini/LM/Burg at the time, let me know & I will be there with bells on, well if I am in the mood for a numb bum & a massive headache :P I just want to experinece whatever the game offers with LoL with all my chars cuz each char is so different and fun!

p.s I will eventually learn to multi task & use voice and heal but right now even pushing the "z" button while healing is out of the question! I'm to busy looking at everyone's health bar, I even forget to look at mine and I die! So yell at me peeps, tell me I'm dying! :p lol

So whatever u decide is fine with me. After all, it is only a game.

:eek: *hides back under her rock*

Tristany/Tany/Trissie

[Frothy]

So where does the kin go with the loot debate and putting something into practice? Do we continue with the current loot rule of one gem, per player, per lock or do we try a form of the dkp system? I am willing to try anything if it appears to be a legitimate attempt at improving things and if this mean dkp then so be it (pardon the pun Sobeit). Saying you will NEVER raid with a dkp system or any other system seems too hastey and rather presumptuous considering most of us have raided under only one system (one gem / person / lock).

Tris you've already proven yourself a pretty darn good mini in the Rift, I think we were all impressed with your roll as a minstrel during the last raid lock. :yes:

[Bearabald]

I still have yet to see anyone that is willing to be a book keeper for any system that we come up with. I would be willing, but plan on being MIA for a while soon.

Something like Bob's idea would work for our current situation if someone is willing to track it EVERY week or pair up with someone to track it.

[Achilleus]

I still have yet to see anyone that is willing to be a book keeper for any system that we come up with. I would be willing, but plan on being MIA for a while soon.

Something like Bob's idea would work for our current situation if someone is willing to track it EVERY week or pair up with someone to track it.
Like previously stated, it should definitely be an officer. I would be willing to do it, but you may want one of your original kinmates that is already an officer.

[Sporto]

I've been pretty quiet so far on this subject, mainly due to work and wanting to try to form my thoughts before I said anything.

Loot rules : As long as it's fair then I'll pretty much go along with whatever folks seem to like. I'm not a huge fan of some DKP systems but there are obviously many different incarnations and Nanuq's doesn't seem too bad. Biggest challenge is tracking them. I do think that our current loot rules seem to work relatively well as long as we continue to recruit members who buy into our Kin ideals. Changing it from one gem per lock to one gem/teal per lock seems like a fantastic idea to me as well, because it helps to ensure that more people on the run get nice loot. I will say that we all need to remember that we are a kin, we are friends, and we need to really ask ourselves everytime we see loot while grouped (raid, fellowship, or otherwise) if another kinmate in the group could use an item more than us. That is the concept that got me the shoulders I'm using now and I will NEVER forget the way that felt when two players negated their rolls so I could win without me saying a word. I like Bob's ideas too and think that would be a simpler way to track things.

Alts in the Rift : As far as I'm concerned if someone takes the time to go to the rift then they should have an equal chance to outfit that toon. Frankly, most of our mains are pretty well outfitted by now anyway. Once again thinking of others will help alot as you look at that chest piece you'd really like for toon A, but your kinmate who is on the same toon you've seen there for the last month and hasn't won anything needs it more. I see this not being a huge issue soon anyway, as we are dangerously close to being able to run two Rifts in one week. I will admit though, that I am not the best person to ask about alts because neither of mine is over 36 and Sporto has all the rift gear up to Thrang's helm. Finally on alts, I will say that I think it benefits the Kin to both have multiple members geared up AND members with multiple well geared toons, however with the level of crafting in our Kin there is no real excuse for any 50 in our group not to be pretty well stacked even without Rift gear.

The thing that I've seen in this thread that hit home with something I had been considering most was what Ach said about talkign up Rift runs and boosting the overall level of communication about them. I think we can expand this into all Kin events. My first creepnight was GREAT because we talked it up. I haven't had one since, but from mentioning the possibility we have had a spattering of kinmates show up creepside thinking there was one coming. I AM going to host another soon, but will likely NOT mention it until I am ready to talk it up/post it in the MOTD, etc. We need to communnicate more, period. I honestly think that raid sign-ups would be a fantastic thing to have as well, but would only work in conjunction with good communication. A sign-up system would get everyone on the same page, would eliminate the disappointment of showing up and not getting in, and would minimize the last minute adjustments (i.e. having someone drop a toon they want to bring for a toon that is needed). Most folks would be much happier knowing all week what toon they're going to need to bring and not finding out at the last minute that they have to drop and switch. This could also help our launch times immensely because it could negate some of the waiting around because we are shorthanded on a certain class.

*Deep breath*

Lastly to the members who are just starting to run with us. Mainly this is aimed at Hal and Trist, you guys did FANTASTIC last week. I was very nervous about leading my first Rift and was very happy to be able to bring a couple of new additions to our group (I know you've rifted Hal, but not alot with us yet). Tris, for voice you can remap your push to talk key. Mine is mapped to the little side thumb button on my mouse so I don't have to make any keystroke to talk, and my thumb isn't used for anything when I play anyway.

[kitty]

holy jebus cripes..this thread took 2 cups of coffee and 1 bio break..thats alot of input folks ^.^ the traditional dkp is not the dkp system introduced by nanuq..and my apologizes <3 i still hate dkp as its unfair to fill ins, tho the zero point may be ok :P however..in the weeks we've rifted without set rules, we have quite simply done one teal/lock..seems to work imo, motivation? yourself, your in game kinmates, and experience! if you go to get something for yourself only..you may not belong here imo..some thoughts on previous posts..
1. kitty doesnt have the rift gear because i like the war capt bonus better (for korn)..she still has 20+ shadow mit tho..which is esential to rog/thorog
2. a roster is a nice idea, but the same problems with rerolls and dkp..who is going to update? i faithfully updated the reroll system when i ran the raids..its easy to burn out (for sporto and frothy) so maybe a consensus with the officers to take turns?
3. yes capts rock (noveah) <3
4. the communication problem is huge..i had set times and dates for my raids, maybe its time to do that again~!
5. that post about the spell check @ pc..you are my favorite person today caer, i laughed until i cried

overall, this thread is nice to see the input, my vote? they way we have been doing it teal/lock, personally, im happy to pass on any toon (even an alt to see a main get equipped) but that should be an attitude, not a requirement

[Sporto]

The roster should be easy to keep track of because it would be renewed every week. I think anything that makes folks think about their schedule and whether or not they can show up at a certain time or if they are committed to show up at a certain time will minimize the chaos that is a Legion of Lions rift forming event. :eek:

[Dangar]

Just a note.

I will no longer be running rifts with LOL.


Will help with anything else if ppl with ask me :D and If i have time.

[Caerylwyn]

I would appreciate a thread or post somewhere that gives a list of things we need for Rift, should have for Rift and recommended but not vital for Rift as well as recommended traits or buffs.

Do I take in my Ents go to War or my signature Beast or my Sword? What combinationation do I use? This came up last night going into CD so I know going into the Rift will also be decision time for my legendaries.

What kind of stuff and how much of it do I need?

What kind of weapon do I use? Fire? light? Something else?

Since I don't even know what is in the Rift (good or bad) I will leave the final call on looting to those who know what all the different kinds are and have experience with each... just help me make the Roll/Pass call when the time comes.

I will gladly pass on things... it is the process of getting to the goal (repeatedly sometimes ;) ) that is fun. After all, once you pass the finish line... what next?

I have been to Uru 3 times now and still don't have the 45 item I need, rolled twice and passed once to give a kinmate the prize and quite honestly it felt good to help him get the prize. And I get the fun and experience of running through again... and again LOL! :rolly: Yes, I want my Eagle but I like my other pets too and my bear is FTW in Forochel!:ooer: I can wait and play and have a blast with friends while I am at it.

I need to adopt all of you! :cheese:

[Bearabald]

Do I take in my Ents go to War or my signature Beast or my Sword? What combinationation do I use? This came up last night going into CD so I know going into the Rift will also be decision time for my legendaries.

What kind of stuff and how much of it do I need?

What kind of weapon do I use? Fire? light? Something else?



LM Legendary traits dont matter much in the rift. I use the sword and beat trait, but sword + anything works well in the rift. Make sure you haev your aoe wound removal trait slotted.

Weapon doesnt matter since LM's are not really a damage class in the rift. Primarily your job is to lock down a target, switch to whatever target everyone is beating on and do some debuffs / damage. The hard part is always being able to switch back to the main target that you are locking down in time to remez it without any breakage.

Be ready with a few hope tokens, food and a few potions if you want.

Nothing too hard, keep building traits up like valour, justice, and anything else that will help your hps, power, and regen.

[Sporto]

Just a note.

I will no longer be running rifts with LOL.


Will help with anything else if ppl with ask me :D and If i have time.

Well D, if you ever get your schedule so it matches the rest of us you are WELCOME to come to the rift lol. Hopefully we are close enough to being able to run two rifts which will get more folks involved.

[Korneilius]

Kitty is right about a lot of things. You can't force wanting to pass on loot to see someone else's main get it.

I personally have a hard time passing up on something like the gloves or the helm. But if someone has come in with less peices than I have and has been pretty down on their luck through the run I would pass on it.

I won't say that I don't care about the loot because I do. My thing is that I want to see everyone get their fair share.

[Frothy]

I like the idea of us looking out for one another in terms of helping out someone on rolls but I also know and FIRMLY believe it is not fair. Yes the intentions are sincere and genuine but beyond the Fin debacle no one will be permitted on my raid to transfer rolls to another player even if it were my beloved Noveah. It can be misinterpretted in so many ways, plus it takes an otherwise fair system and turns the odds in someone's favor.

Secondly if we a Lion who really needs better gear lets look at trying to ensure they at least have either burnished, fine, mirrored or exquisite pieces on to hold them off until the roll goes in their favor for Rift gear. I don't want a medal or recognition but I have crafted many pieces for many Lions and will continue to do so if the mats are provided. We have plenty of GMs, all of which would be more than happy to craft armor for those who need an upgrade and a stopgap before they can get Rift gear.

[Korneilius]

So it's okay for someone with three lvl 50 toons to have a full set of rift armour while a person with 1 alt only has the boots because they're sloppy seconds so to speak?

Does it make it fair to that one person because they lucked out on rolls?

[Frothy]

I guess this is a sticky one also and I apologize if I offend or disappoint anyone by my stance on this subject. I feel pretty strongly about this one but I am SOOOOOO impressed with this thread and the fact that so many of you chose to tell us how you feel. Anyway I feel as though, under our current system of one gem per lock per character, if you have three level 50s with lots of Rift gear then you've obviously spent a lot of time in the rift so it was earned under a pretty fair system. I'm a firm believer that if you spend enough time in the Rift you're going to get some pretty nice teal items and / or gems you earned through rolls and perserverence.

I think myself as well as some others feel as though donating rolls to someone is not good practice, other than the Fin debacle. However if the individual wishing to donate a roll has 100% support from all members of the raid then it is acceptable to do so. Without 100% support it just isn't fair or acceptable to do.

[Korneilius]

Yeah I think the system was great. It was just discouraging a lot of people to go on the rift that people with alts were winning more gems than a person with no alts to bring.

I must say that I have been in the rift more times than I can count and I've seen more alts and players with multiple lvl 50's get the gems more so than I have gotten any myself. And it makes me think, "Why should I bother? Why should I spend nearly 300s every week on going to the rift when everyone else is brining in alts to roll on rift peices that I also need?"

So what I think we're all trying to do is find some middle ground where people won't feel discouraged to come to the rift, but also where it's fair enough for everyone to get their fair share of loot.

[Frothy]

I think this was some of the beauty of Kitty's reroll system because it creditted non-gem winning raiders with more rerolls which in turn should have increased the odds of them winning, unless you were rerolling against a 96.

I also can see the "why should I bother?" syndrome setting in among many of the kin so we MUST find a middle ground that is fair for all and fun for all. We already have a few raiders who have raided the past few times with us and haven't won a gem yet. I can remember getting my first three Rift pieces in like a month around the time I first starting raiding and then it took me 7 months to get the chest piece (2 weeks ago), so yes it can be a long haul to get those gems under the one gem per lock per character system.

Even I have nights in the Rift where I see some very nice teal items drop and maybe a nice cloak, all of which I decide to roll on, only to then see numbers below 15 on my rolls. I say to myself "heck can't I get a break on something here" because I really liked that ring or unique ugly helm with nice tank stats (Korn ;) ) and yet I'm just as happy to see those items on another Lion (Korn :yes: ). In the end I always return anxious for the opening of the boss chest and the Master Looter's "Oh my" comment as he or she peers into the loot before it gets spammed. You never know I was lucky enough to win a Twisted Gold Bracelet a couple of months ago and felt as though I just won two gems I was so awe struck.

Where do we go from here? DKP or no DKP?

[Kamman]

I my self think it is fine the way it is. I have been on 1 rift raid with the kin and it seem to work fine. I have been on a total of 9 rift raids and never got to roll because of the systems the other kins had. either points (then get out bid because they do total point of main/alts) or I most go to a number of raid with the kins before you can roll.

As for signup that is great idea but brake it out to as startup and a pickup list. I know that I can not make most of those starts and will always ask to be add to a pickup list. I have no problem if I do or don't get picked up so no one should feel bad. My kid and family trump online gaming, I wished they could be equal but can't. :cheese:

Kamman -- 50 hunter
Thurinthaloin -- 42 lm

[Achilleus]

I had a thought, just an idea really, no big deal. So don't attack me. :cheese: People have alts and mains obviously and some feel their alts are all mains or just as important. And, people feel that the mains should have preference in rift looting over their alts. I currently have a minstrel as my main, but have played my guard mainly now for a while. I would like to see my guard outfitted before my minstrel. So, I wondered what to do if I wanted to switch an alt to a main? If someone wishes to do this because they are bored with their main or because they are done outfitting that toon, should it be allowed? If allowed, I would say that perhaps that alt you convert to your main would have to be in place as your main for at least 6 months or whatever is decided. What do you guys think?

[Korneilius]

Where do we go from here? DKP or no DKP?

Do be honest I think we should avoid DKP at all costs. Save it maybe for the Balrog or for something that would be needed for it.

[Frothy]

GREAT point and discussion Jar and something I'm sure some of us have given thought to but have never spoken up.I don't see anything wrong with a player determining who his or her main is especially when they may have multiple 50s. Only a player can really determine for themselves what character and class best fits them - for me it's Frothy but on many days it's Leandorin or my own guard. But it does add another layer of complexity to the whole Rift loot rule debate we are all entwined in. Nonetheless I myself think it is a player's decision to determine who their main is and to perhaps just let the kin know so they are aware of who a player is running most of the time and would prefer to run.

[Korneilius]

But it does add another layer of complexity to the whole Rift loot rule debate we are all entwined in. Nonetheless I myself think it is a player's decision to determine who their main is and to perhaps just let the kin know so they are aware of who a player is running most of the time and would prefer to run.


And how can we know for sure this person isn't just saying "This is my main" only because they want the toon to be outfitted in rift gear? And once that toon is outfitted they switch toons and choose a new main to outfit in rift gear.

What happens to the others? The fact is that it's hard to make rules to benefit the majority of people because there will always be someone that will defy it or find a way to work around it. We need to find a system where it works and everyone gets a fair chance at armour.

What I just thought of this moment...

Kin members choose one toon they want to bring to the rift. And everytime we go to the rift these players must bring the exact same toon until everyone is equipped with armour. But that also brings up the issue of people not coming once they get all their peices.

I don't know I'm just rambling on but this is just what I thought of.

my 2 cents anyway

[Frothy]

Ugggh there is always another good point of view and I try to always respect that. Korn you once again have another good point that needs to be considered in terms of determining mains and alts.

Sure I'd like to believe the "honor system" will work for us, trusting that each kin member wouldn't change alts and mains as they choose to get rift gear. However relying on the honor system also means we are susceptible to the dishonest and greedy ruining the system. Once again I am stuck on where to go from here. Perhaps we will need to consider some rules also for changing alts and mains so that it is fair but also flexible. Outside of the Rift and raid areas this really isn't an issue since many of us run whoever we feel like on that particular day or evening. It is when we do raid that it comes to the surface with our Loot rule debate.

[bokonon]

"Mains" and "alts"...well i am in the odd situation of having done a lot of my raiding with LoL, but with a toon that is not in the kin at all (been trying to keep some activity in the old kin until the leaders get active again, i hate to see a kin die, i am a lousy leader though). I only have one lvl50 at the moment, my LM, though i started playing this game on day one. I bring her whenever any of my friends need a LM for the rift and i have the time. But i expect that when my mini hits 50 i'll play her most. Which is the main? I dunno. I see it as having more options to fill a particular slot: if the raid needs a certain class they shouldn't be the roll underdog because they aren't a "main".

I don't have a lot of long free time periods to join raids, so i would never win anything under systems that favor the regulars (this has been my experience with some other kins). Frankly i can't afford the repairs from rift raids much, either; i don't have time for a lot of grinding and so i don't have much gold for skills, materials, horsies etc. Anyway this is why my LM only has one rift armor piece. I'll still raid with friends whenever they can stand my noobish ways, but it would suck to never win any good loot, or have someone throw down a drama storm cuz my guard came on a raid that needed a tank and won a roll that someone else felt more entitled to (just an example, everyone's been quite pleasant on all the LoL raids i've been on).

It's a game, keep it fun. Teal's just a color between grass and grapes. Hope this made some sense. Yarr!

[Korneilius]

I'm pretty much stuck on what to suggest too Froth. We need something strict I think. Not to sound harsh but setting a set of rules that are fair and sticking to them would be the best thing I think.

Like let's say we go to the rift with what I suggested. You pick a main for the run until everyone in that raid is fully equipped. You don't follow the rules you don't rift. If that kinda explains what I mean by strict?

Maybe the problem with the loot in the rift is that we don't stick to a set of rules?

[Caerylwyn]

Isn't this discussion ranging into micro management? I don't have any suggestions but I do see the hand of nit-pick here.

There comes a time when there needs to be trust between friends. Yes, there are times when there need to be hard fast rules too. There are also times when you need to bend those same rules.

I think a set of basic guidelines for each set of circumstances like casual fellowship play, big fellowship/raid play (books, Uru, CD etc), Rift play, and those times when we have 'outsiders' playing with the kinship would be a start.

This can include all the different ideas or a morph of them.

Personally I think the 1 gem/teal rule is a good starting place but so is the simple DKP system that starts everyone out at the same level every time they run the Rift whether they be kin, non-kin, main or alt.

This giving some toons precedence over others is interesting but really seems pointless to me probably because I run all my toons and don't really make a distinction between them and I only have one lvl 50.

At the advice of some friends here when I hit a wall :bang: with the game( thanks PC & Isee) I do level up one toon at a time because I was trying to level them all at once:ack: but I enjoy all of them except the Champ (which is why he is the mule awaiting deletion...:eh: ) and don't really have a 'main'.

Once I reach 50 with more than one toon I will take whichever toon is needed when ever I can join any fellowship or raid and while I know the Rift stuff is good I really play the game for the fellowship and the prize is just a nice add on (except the tenticles, I really want those for some odd reason :rolly: but even with those I don't mind running repeatedly and will continue to help with CD after I get them and I do want to start a key collection).

All that being said, I trust the Officers and 'Elders' of this kinship and know that you are trying to be fair to everyone. Just remember the old "You can't please everyone" and don't take any upset personally, there will always be someone unhappy with whatever decision you make.

Leave yourselves some wiggle room for making changes as needed and a complete disreguard and bending when called for and let us just simply play a game together.:cheese:

[Korneilius]

Well put Caer!

[Sporto]

I think Caer said it best when she said there comes a point that we have to trust our kinmates. Every system is going to have it's loopholes and we have to trust each other enough to take that chance. There is no way possible to come up with a system that covers every angle.

My take is this. One gem/teal per person per lock. This ensures the best distribution of loot to all involved. As for alts vs mains, I think that is a slippery slope and that if someone puts in the time it takes to run a night in the rift then they should have a good chance to win something useful. This is where trust comes in, and I have already seen/heard from several kinmates who acknowledged they were running a lesser played toon and so were passing on some rolls.

I absolutely do not think teals in the Rift should remain as free rolls because our kin is getting too big for that to remain fair. I also think, after looking at the insane number of 50s on our roster today, that it should be VERY easy for us to run more than one Rift. There is already a dream rift on thursdays, along with other groups who often invite lions to them.

[Bobalin]

I think Boko has epitimised the whole point of the Lions rift rules as nicely as anyone has so far. When I joined the kin it was emphasised that the rules were there to give EVERYONE an equal chance of winning a teal regardless of how many times others had been there. This I understood to be a fair set of rules for our kin because not everyone could make it every week, we ran the same locks multiple times during a week (sometimes with different players), and we were trying to encourage those who were new to the rift to come more often and get excited about the prospect of good loot.
What I am tending to hear more and more in the debate is even though people are saying 'no DKP', their ideas are suggesting 'yes DKP'. For example Korn has been saying that some people are lucked out on rolls and deserve to get more loot because they have been there more. I know it's not DKP in so many words but many tried and tested methods in the worlds of MMO's have led to the conclusion that the best and most efficient attendance-to-reward system is DKP. If the general consensus is that we should create a system that rewards those who go to the rift more than others then we will inevitably end up with a DKP type system.
Mains vs. Alts? Maybe it's just me, but since I have 3 level 50's with whom I play regularly and know pretty well I consider them all to be mains. I know some people may think that that's not very fair, however I should point out that other than for my champion, the only pieces of rift gear I want for my other toons is the gloves (for the disperse shadow clicky). As Frothy pointed out it is possible to be more than adequately kitted out simply by asking kinmates to craft something for you, and in many cases and for many classes, a full set of rift gear is not necessarily beneficial (other than for cosmetic reasons).
Having thought about the issues raised during the debate a lot I have come to my personal conclusion that the best and simplest way to take this on is to continue a one gem/teal per KIN lock system with NO re-rolls and NO advantage to mains. It is statistically impossible for someone to be so unlucky as to never win anything based on these rules as long as they dont expect to just turn up and win something. I know some people are luckier than others but a running theme through this debate has been that regardless of who wins (and how many pieces they already have) that person is a kinmate, A KINMATE!, and even if we feel bad for losing, that feeling should quickly be taken over by happiness for a kinmate getting a nice item.
Anyway that's what I think. I'm not forcing anyone to comply with my ideas I just wanted to air them and make it know that if there was a vote, that is how I will be voting.

Bob

[Sporto]

Exactly right, we are all Kinmates and should be happy regardless who wins. I actually get more elated when someone new comes and wins than I do if I win (and at the moment I am more or less purely leading rift raids on Friday for the benefit of the kin). If that teal shield drops then it's just a bonus for me to try to roll for it.

Nobody in this Kin is going to get constantly screwed because we are always going to be pushing to get as many folks decked out as possible. A good example of where we are heading is this past Friday when we had 3 sets of boots drop and only had 3 people in the raid who even NEEDED them.

This leads me to a question I have been wondering about... I know the gems are boa but are the items you trade for boa? If not then what would stop us from either a) stocking a few class items in the officer chest as rewards of some sort, or b) selling them on the AH to build kin funds?

[Bobalin]

I know the gems are boa but are the items you trade for boa?

Yes they are.