Daoc with great art?! Sign me up.

[Golmacmourna]

Well, I'm not quite *that* enthusiastic, but here's a vid of their beta changes;
http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/flash/2007-11_pp-GameSystemChanges.html

they make a point out of talking about bringing back the RvR keeps and siege. It's the same info in Beta 4, only it's easier to understand.

also; mounts http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/newsletter/2007_11/WARmount02.jpg

[Cavan]

The skill tree stuff isn't new.... but it is cool... I mean every MMO or RPG game for that matter has the Tree Analogy...

Scenario RvR.... hmmm... Where Oh Where have we seen this before... I know you add to your game what other games have proven works well... but don't act like it's YOUR idea....

[Golmacmourna]

Nothing MMOs do can be even vaguely considered actual gameplay, let alone original.

What we need to focus on here is that this is combining Warhammer, WoW, and DAOC into a super-drug that I can inject directly into my eye.

[Noleader]

What we need to focus on here is that this is combining Warhammer, WoW, and DAOC into a super-drug that I can inject directly into my eye.

HAHAHAHAHA

[MickeyFinn]

A couple things I've noticed and am concerned about.

The first thing that was good is that they're changing how characters are built. You start off "in a straight line" and "Branch out" as you get more experienced. The problem I foresee is the same as in DAoC, where one branch or one specific hybrid spec will be far superior to the others. In original camelot (not that expansion crap... well, maybe SI was ok) did you hear of a bard that could go weapon, or a healer that was something aside from Pac? The options are there, but there was always a clear choice as to what was best. I doubt Mythic will address this until years down the road.

Siege Warfare. This has never been well done. Nothing is more boring than ramming a wooden door, or waiting on the other side of that wooden door. They have to find a way for a long siege battle to stay interesting during that entire saga. I haven't played NF but I'm told that it's a real yawn to treb a keep wall, just like it was in the original cammy.

[Golmacmourna]

Siege cannot be interesting because real seige is not interesting. Sure, it *sounds* epic, but the entire point of seige is to get involved in a brutal waiting game from hell where people periodically make suicidal attempts to breach a defense, or thwart an assault. Free flowing tactical fights, or city fighting, are far more 'fun' in real life, in terms of being able to try different things and react to situations which do not have simplistic straight-forward solutions. The idea of adding siege gameplay is a bad one, and it's one of the reasons that siege table top games aren't usually popular unless you get to shoot little rubber-band powered catapults at cardboard targets.

As for diverging paths. Diverging paths are never equal. Especially in an environment where there are 3 tasks, but 18 paths. The tasks will *always* be, absorbing damage, doing damage, and healing. They can't break that up because maneuver is not a significant factor, skill is not a significant factor, and strategic thinking is not a significant factor. There will always be a direct, straight forward application of finite abilities, random results, and an outcome only partially affected by player input, and mostly driven by circumstances.

As long as they stick with a one-unit RTS format, the whole effort is pointless. The only reason it will be fun is because of pretty pictures, other lions, and the simple joy of playing yahtzee. Or cribbage. Ok, to be fair, cribbage.

[MickeyFinn]

I believe it is possible to make siege fun. I just don't think that Mythic will figure out how to do it, because I won't tell them :D

[Noleader]

Siege is fun if you are the right class, atleast that was the case in DAoC. Back when Nightshades, SBs, and Infs were affective a Siege could be a blast. This was also true for most of your soft ranged attackers. The problem with Siege is that it is basically linear in play. The whole objective is to breach the defenses so it does not lend well to a wide array of classes. The only thing I could think of that would make a siege a bit more exciting is adding new ways to breach the structure without allowing people to completely skip the objective.

One way would to make Keep takes into more Urban warfare. The defenders could post up in buildings all around the objective and try to ambush a the attackers. That way you do not have walls that define the battle as much as fluid warfare. The problem being though that defenders need time to rally forces to the defense of an objective or else you will get a lot of 4am raids by single groups that undermind the week long work of a faction.

[Golmacmourna]

NS, SBs and Infs having fun during siege = siege being fun when you don't actually have to participate in it. :)

[Noleader]

NS, SBs and Infs having fun during siege = siege being fun when you don't actually have to participate in it. :)

I always felt like I was participating... atleast to the extent of getting my group RPs

[MickeyFinn]

Here are the points I think would make siege warfare much more fun.


1) NPC enlistment. If you're sieging a castle, it should take huge numbers. Each player should be able to hire two NPCs, who actually handle the aiming and firing of the equipment itself. Standing still and firing a treb is total balls. It sucks.

2) With the massive number of players, now we have what appears to be a real siege. The only problem is that only about 25% of the people are firing weapons (which might be too much already). Now we need tasks for everybody else. Here are some ideas for the siege standoff from the attacker's standpoint:

-Runners for supplies through the open RvR zones. Food, Wood, etc.

-Tunnel digging! If players could dig multiple tunnels with dynamite, shovels, or whatever they could find, I would be in heaven. You could strategically plan your keep attack, instead of just pile up on the door.

-Defensive NPC enlistment. Similar to my previous point. Players present at the defending of the siege should be able to hire archers or other NPCs to defend the keep while they are in the proximity of the keep.



I have tons of ideas, but this is a start. It ensures high numbers and a more dynamic environment for siege warfare.

[Golmacmourna]

In the good old days, Silent Death had a game mode where your fighters escorted a transport back and forth from an asteroid it was mining. If it was destroyed, a new one spawned at the base, so the time lost wasn't huge--but made a big difference because each load the transports brought home was your score. If there were a mutual supply run kind of situation where the enemy was attacking and defending and you were doing the same, that could be great.

I don't think a developer would get into tunnels, but since magic is in the world, you could have someone set a portal receiver crystal or something--hidden in a bush or whatever, and use it to push people through a portal. That would give infiltrators something to do.

I think enlisting NPCs is a good idea in general--but I like the kinds of games where the npcs are a dime a dozen and the players can take armies of them out all by themselves--and MMOs don't play like that.

[eilariele]

-Tunnel digging! If players could dig multiple tunnels with dynamite, shovels, or whatever they could find, I would be in heaven. You could strategically plan your keep attack, instead of just pile up on the door.

WooHoo!! Can you imagine digging down in a hole under a keep wall, and then hot oil, and dead animals are thrown in from above?! EWWW!! But that would be neat!

[gepper]

I am thinking more like Mighty Python. I wouldn't mind catapolting disgusting things and flicking things at people!