]LoL[Harm
09-25-2006, 03:09 PM
Revisiting old Iraq War discussions. :)
Re: Never been more Proud of America than I am right now.
Freedom is another relative term, one that cannot be used as a blanket statement that covers all of humanity. Freedom does not encompass society, society encompasses freedom. We decide what type of freedom we like. We decide as a society what is acceptable in the concepts of freedom and what is not. It is not OUR right to decide another peoples freedoms. It is not OUR right to force a freedom upon another society that may not want it, who may not be able to support it or who culturally oppose our societal views. (Some or none of these may be true for Iraq) It is naive think it is OUR right.
Quote:
You will never convince me that helping a people acheive freedom is not the right thing to do. Never. Not because it cost too much, that people end up dieing, becuase it was stable before hand, or that because of their culture they dont deserve freedom.
This is shortsighted idealism. There is always a price to pay, and sometimes the price IS too high. As it stands now, 1000+ dead soldiers and hundreds of billions of dollars is what has been spent; different views will dictate whether or not that is too high a price.
We initiated their fight for liberty. We started their revolution. Again, what gives us the right to decide when it is their time for liberty? Did JFK give us this right? And you’ve stated that the UN may have given us the right…you’re off your gord, they DIDN’T want us to go to war, no matter what mandate was in place.
Why do others feel it is their right to impose their way of life on another people. Here’s an example, a little off topic but salient none the less. I’m pro-life, but only in my little world. I only date women who are also pro-life, because I know if they get pregnant there will never be discussion of abortion. I however will NEVER support pro-life as the means to rule over our society. It is naïve and egotistical of me to believe that EVERYONE must live under my view of the world. I will always vote pro-choice because choice IS freedom.
Therefore I would not force democracy upon a people who have never chosen democracy for themselves. Iran, Syria, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, UAE and etc. None of these countries have chosen democracy. Are we to war with them all to give them our definition of liberty? When will China fall? How many of our children shall we march off to war in order to give our precious liberty to the world? From your perspective we should give every last man and woman, for there is no price too high.
Understand though, I like the idea of Iraq voting. I however do not hold much hope for it, because they did not choose this liberty by themselves, they did not fight this with iniative, they did not ask us to give them our liberty. The most stable of democracies in this world have come from the people of that country rising up and overthrowing what kept them from the freedoms and liberties that they desired. The democracies instilled by a foreign power have fared far worse. History shows us this. History is often right. As I said earlier, I hope history and my fears are proven wrong. Until they are, I will not celebrate anything.
Because if in a year, after we have left (if we have left), and there is nothing in Iraq but a bloody civil war, then the cost will have been too high. The loss of our soldiers and the lives of the Iraqi’s will have been too high for something that failed. Just like Vietnam.
Original thread here (http://www.legionoflions.com/showthread.php?t=7229&highlight=Iraq).
Re: Never been more Proud of America than I am right now.
Freedom is another relative term, one that cannot be used as a blanket statement that covers all of humanity. Freedom does not encompass society, society encompasses freedom. We decide what type of freedom we like. We decide as a society what is acceptable in the concepts of freedom and what is not. It is not OUR right to decide another peoples freedoms. It is not OUR right to force a freedom upon another society that may not want it, who may not be able to support it or who culturally oppose our societal views. (Some or none of these may be true for Iraq) It is naive think it is OUR right.
Quote:
You will never convince me that helping a people acheive freedom is not the right thing to do. Never. Not because it cost too much, that people end up dieing, becuase it was stable before hand, or that because of their culture they dont deserve freedom.
This is shortsighted idealism. There is always a price to pay, and sometimes the price IS too high. As it stands now, 1000+ dead soldiers and hundreds of billions of dollars is what has been spent; different views will dictate whether or not that is too high a price.
We initiated their fight for liberty. We started their revolution. Again, what gives us the right to decide when it is their time for liberty? Did JFK give us this right? And you’ve stated that the UN may have given us the right…you’re off your gord, they DIDN’T want us to go to war, no matter what mandate was in place.
Why do others feel it is their right to impose their way of life on another people. Here’s an example, a little off topic but salient none the less. I’m pro-life, but only in my little world. I only date women who are also pro-life, because I know if they get pregnant there will never be discussion of abortion. I however will NEVER support pro-life as the means to rule over our society. It is naïve and egotistical of me to believe that EVERYONE must live under my view of the world. I will always vote pro-choice because choice IS freedom.
Therefore I would not force democracy upon a people who have never chosen democracy for themselves. Iran, Syria, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, UAE and etc. None of these countries have chosen democracy. Are we to war with them all to give them our definition of liberty? When will China fall? How many of our children shall we march off to war in order to give our precious liberty to the world? From your perspective we should give every last man and woman, for there is no price too high.
Understand though, I like the idea of Iraq voting. I however do not hold much hope for it, because they did not choose this liberty by themselves, they did not fight this with iniative, they did not ask us to give them our liberty. The most stable of democracies in this world have come from the people of that country rising up and overthrowing what kept them from the freedoms and liberties that they desired. The democracies instilled by a foreign power have fared far worse. History shows us this. History is often right. As I said earlier, I hope history and my fears are proven wrong. Until they are, I will not celebrate anything.
Because if in a year, after we have left (if we have left), and there is nothing in Iraq but a bloody civil war, then the cost will have been too high. The loss of our soldiers and the lives of the Iraqi’s will have been too high for something that failed. Just like Vietnam.
Original thread here (http://www.legionoflions.com/showthread.php?t=7229&highlight=Iraq).